Like us on Facebook


Follow us on Twitter





Page 10 of 20 FirstFirst ... 89101112 ... LastLast
Results 136 to 150 of 293
  1. #136
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    12,320
    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    With Kyrie itís both. Not only is it a personality thing, his impact just isnít as high in the court. He also needs to be a #2 if weíre going there.

    In either case, Pippen is better, so itís a pretty bad argument.
    I don't know if he needs to be a #2. Maybe, but as to your point of Pippen being better, I'm not so sure and I don't mean like I'm disagreeing, I'm saying I'm just not sure. Career wise yes, but as a basketball player, I don't know. Certainly not offensively. Kyrie blows Pippen out in terms of what he can do on the offensive side of the ball. Pippen does the same on defense, but for me, offense is more important. As playmakers, Pippen might be better because of Kyrie's scoring mentality. This is a close one for me. If you replace Kyrie with Pippen in 2016, I'm not sure the Cavs win the title (but maybe they do?), but I'm also not sure how effective Kyrie would be in Pippen's role with the Bulls. I honestly don't know, but if anything this discussion highlights how comparable I think the two are as basketball players in terms of how good they are/were.

  2. #137
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    parts unknown
    Posts
    59,299

    Critisism of forming super-teams

    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Donít know how far Pippen goes? On a single year without MJ he went farther than Bosh, Love, or Kyrie ever took their team as a #1.

    We donít know but we can guess and it seems to me you are giving a ton of weight to winning one series and not bothering to ask the questions people normally ask in this situation. If we want to guess we should look at the qualities that these successful franchise guys normally have and ask if Scottie has them. We can also ask what qualities players that are good but fail in that franchise position often have and ask ourselves if that sounds like Scottie.

    If we do that I think Scottie profile a lot more closely to guys that struggle post season. His favorable comparison is KG which is still not a ringing endorsement of him as ďthe manĒ

    He won one series as his team main guy bur he probably get more credit for getting out of the first round then any player ever.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Last edited by ewing; 06-16-2021 at 12:41 PM.
    Rep Power: 0




    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  3. #138
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    12,320
    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Donít know how far Pippen goes? On a single year without MJ he went farther than Bosh, Love, or Kyrie ever took their team as a #1.
    Ehh, again he was part of a championship team that had an excellent coach and system in place and they knew how to win (as you noted earlier, the bulls were really talented albeit not a super team). If you replace Pippen with any of those guys you mentioned, I'm not sure the outcome would've been all that different (second round exit to the Knicks). The following season, the bulls were basically a .500 team heading into the final stretch of games, which is more or less what Love and Bosh were able to do with their (far less talented) teams before they left for greener pastures.

    To me, the main issue with Pippen is his offensive skills were really limited and that really affected how impactful he could be on the offensive side of the ball, especially once the game slowed down, and even more so if he was the main guy on the court at the time. I think with all of the other guys we're discussing, they didn't suffer from this limitation and it was actually a positive for most if not all of them (certainly a very big positive for Ewing and Drexler).
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 06-16-2021 at 12:42 PM.

  4. #139
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    41,586
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I don't know, I thought he was in the discussion for top 5 and did think he was the best PF and I think most publications had him at around 5-7 at the time (but this is based on memory so I could be wrong).
    He never made the All-NBA 1st team nor did he ever finish in Top 5 in MVP voting. Even beyond that, in 2012 when he made his first All-NBA 2nd team the 1st team consisted of CP3, Kobe, LeBron, Durant, and Dwight. He was not considered better than any of them.

  5. #140
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    41,586
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    This is laughable man and is frankly a troll post. I'm having a discussion about super teams and Pippen and you guys keep bringing up things not related to this issue. My ulterior motive of something that has zero impact on Kobe or LBJ one way or the other. It's silly. We can always find things to make something make sense. Unless Kobe or LBJ are related to the discussion at hand, I really don't see the need to keep talking about them.
    What is laughable is that you want everyone to think you believing Pippen is worse (or barely better) than all of Kyrie, Love, and Bosh is just a coincidence.

  6. #141
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    41,586
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I don't know if he needs to be a #2. Maybe, but as to your point of Pippen being better, I'm not so sure and I don't mean like I'm disagreeing, I'm saying I'm just not sure. Career wise yes, but as a basketball player, I don't know. Certainly not offensively. Kyrie blows Pippen out in terms of what he can do on the offensive side of the ball. Pippen does the same on defense, but for me, offense is more important. As playmakers, Pippen might be better because of Kyrie's scoring mentality. This is a close one for me. If you replace Kyrie with Pippen in 2016, I'm not sure the Cavs win the title (but maybe they do?), but I'm also not sure how effective Kyrie would be in Pippen's role with the Bulls. I honestly don't know, but if anything this discussion highlights how comparable I think the two are as basketball players in terms of how good they are/were.
    Considering he was an epic failure as a #1, yes he needs to be a #2.

  7. #142
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    41,586
    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    We donít know but we can guess and it seems to me you are giving a ton of weight to winning one series and not bothering to ask the questions people normally ask in this situation. If we want to guess we should look at the qualities that these successful franchise guys normally have and ask if Scottie has them. We can also ask what qualities players that are good but fail in that franchise position often have and ask ourselves if that sounds like Scottie.

    If we do that I think Scottie profile a lot more closely to guys that struggle post season. His favorable comparison is KG which is still not a ringing endorsement of him as ďthe manĒ

    He won one series as his team main guy bur he probably get more credit for getting out of the first round then any player ever.
    Well the reason Scottie gets so much credit for getting out of the first round is because it was literally a one out of one sample size. If that team had been without MJ for a decade straight and he got out of the 1st once, the feat wouldn't have been in held in nearly as high a regard.

  8. #143
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    41,586
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Ehh, again he was part of a championship team that had an excellent coach and system in place and they knew how to win (as you noted earlier, the bulls were really talented albeit not a super team). If you replace Pippen with any of those guys you mentioned, I'm not sure the outcome would've been all that different (second round exit to the Knicks). The following season, the bulls were basically a .500 team heading into the final stretch of games, which is more or less what Love and Bosh were able to do with their (far less talented) teams before they left for greener pastures.

    To me, the main issue with Pippen is his offensive skills were really limited and that really affected how impactful he could be on the offensive side of the ball, especially once the game slowed down, and even more so if he was the main guy on the court at the time. I think with all of the other guys we're discussing, they didn't suffer from this limitation and it was actually a positive for most if not all of them (certainly a very big positive for Ewing and Drexler).
    You are the king of using whatever argument suits you to accomplish your agenda. Just earlier in this thread you were talking about how overrated Phil Jackson was and how he literally wasn't even a good X's and O's guy as well as talking about how you don't think the Bulls were the most talented team in the league beyond MJ and Pippen and now when it comes time to talk about Pippen you talk about how great a coach Phil was and how talented they were.

    Kyrie went to a Boston team that had an excellent coach, system, and talent in place and they did better without him than they did with him.

    Also, Clyde's big problem was his effectiveness plummeted in the halfcourt. He was also more of a fastbreak guy.

  9. #144
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    12,320
    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    What is laughable is that you want everyone to think you believing Pippen is worse (or barely better) than all of Kyrie, Love, and Bosh is just a coincidence.
    I simply don't think Pippen was as good as some of you think he was. Does that mean you have an agenda to somehow prop up LBJ? If Pippen was on a bad team for most of his career, I'm not sure we would really talk too differently about him than we do of Love and Bosh now. When Pippen went to the rockets and then Portland, he was a full blown role player at that point and Houston was simply one year removed from him being what some are saying was a superstar. It would be an incredible drop if that was the case, but would make a lot more sense if he was more on the tier of the other guys we're discussing.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 06-16-2021 at 01:17 PM.

  10. #145
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    12,320
    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    You are the king of using whatever argument suits you to accomplish your agenda. Just earlier in this thread you were talking about how overrated Phil Jackson was and how he literally wasn't even a good X's and O's guy as well as talking about how you don't think the Bulls were the most talented team in the league beyond MJ and Pippen and now when it comes time to talk about Pippen you talk about how great a coach Phil was and how talented they were.

    Kyrie went to a Boston team that had an excellent coach, system, and talent in place and they did better without him than they did with him.

    Also, Clyde's big problem was his effectiveness plummeted in the halfcourt. He was also more of a fastbreak guy.
    I've made that argument about Phil before, but overrated for being the GOAT coach is different than not being a great coach. I also said earlier that he belongs in the discussion of GOAT coach, I just don't think he was the best ever coach (he was often out coached by guys who ended up getting less credit, e.g., pop, brown).

    The boston situation isn't the same though because that was a young team that had built an identity without Kyrie and Kyrie had chemistry and personal issues with them. Pippen was already an integral part of that bulls roster and had been playing with those players and coaching staff for many years.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 06-16-2021 at 01:13 PM.

  11. #146
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    12,320
    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Considering he was an epic failure as a #1, yes he needs to be a #2.
    He also really only had one year of being the best player and being on a respectable team and there were injury issues that seasons as well. I'd like to see a little more out of Kyrie before fully saying he HAS to be a #2. Not disagreeing, just saying it might be premature at this point (although it is likely correct given his personality issues)
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 06-16-2021 at 01:14 PM.

  12. #147
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    12,320
    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Well the reason Scottie gets so much credit for getting out of the first round is because it was literally a one out of one sample size. If that team had been without MJ for a decade straight and he got out of the 1st once, the feat wouldn't have been in held in nearly as high a regard.
    We have most of the following season though and the Bulls were kind of struggling to stay afloat. We don't know what would've happened, but I think it's a pretty reasonable prediction to say they would've gone out in the 1st or 2nd round and would've likely not put up much of a fight while doing it, based on how their season was going.

  13. #148
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    12,439
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I simply don't think Pippen was as good as some of you think he was. Does that mean you have an agenda to somehow prop up LBJ? If Pippen was on a bad team for most of his career, I'm not sure we would really talk too differently about him than we do of Love and Bosh now. When Pippen went to the rockets and then Portland, he was a full blown role player at that point and Houston was simply one year removed from him being what some are saying was a superstar. It would be an incredible drop if that was the case, but would make a lot more sense if he was more on the tier of the other guys we're discussing.
    The issue is the way you describe ones support as superstars not the others for seemingly obvious reasons in that other thread.

    When it comes to pippin you have explained he isnít a superstar but young Kobe on the 3 peat was. Thatís why you count ones rings not the other so that term carries a ton of weight in your Lebron/Kobe discussion we were all part of.

    Given the weight you have put on that term in those discussions and where you constantly land on if the lesser players comparatively are one, it sure seems like more of an agenda as many have noted previously. I went in depth on klove Scottie in that thread for similar reasons


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  14. #149
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    41,586
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I simply don't think Pippen was as good as some of you think he was. Does that mean you have an agenda to somehow prop up LBJ? If Pippen was on a bad team for most of his career, I'm not sure we would really talk too differently about him than we do of Love and Bosh now. When Pippen went to the rockets and then Portland, he was a full blown role player at that point and Houston was simply one year removed from him being what some are saying was a superstar. It would be an incredible drop if that was the case, but would make a lot more sense if he was more on the tier of the other guys we're discussing.
    When it's a combination of you not thinking Pippen was as good as we all do, but also thinking Kyrie, Bosh and Love were better than we all do, misremembering how high stature Pippen was regarded in, while overestimating how high a stature the other three were regarded in, it becomes a pattern.

    Also, it shows you really don't know what you're talking about when you say Pippen became a full blown role player in Portland. Pippen was the leader of the team. He was referred to as such as well:

    https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nyti...n-blazers.html

    Pippen Leads Trail Blazers to Conference Finals

  15. #150
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    41,586
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    He also really only had one year of being the best player and being on a respectable team and there were injury issues that seasons as well. I'd like to see a little more out of Kyrie before fully saying he HAS to be a #2. Not disagreeing, just saying it might be premature at this point (although it is likely correct given his personality issues)
    Unfortunately we'll probably never get to see because he's so much of a #2 he's never going to be entrusted to be a #1 ever again. Which further hurts your point.

Page 10 of 20 FirstFirst ... 89101112 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •