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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by NBA all the way View Post
    MJ proved he can win in Chicago, under Phil, with Pippen by his side.

    LeBron has won with 3 different franchises, 3 different co-stars, 3 different coaching staffs, 3 different locations so far.

    I'm sorry but you'll be hard pressed to convince me MJ is the GOAT, dude quit to play baseball then quit to play golf. That's weak.

    MJ's 6, 7, 8 year run, no one will touch it. But there's no longevity there. Zero adversity. Dude just kept on quitting the sport.
    Players are judged on sustained success, accolades (consensus perception), and winning. Right? From the base level....

    Nobody becomes an all-star off of one 30pt game. It's consistent and repeated dominant games.

    Nobody becomes an All-NBA based on a good few weeks it's the whole season dominating individually and pushing their team's success.

    Nobody becomes a HOF player without dominating a league for multiple seasons individually and pushing their team to achieve positive results for multiple seasons.

    Nobody becomes the GOAT without dominating individually, pushing their team to achieve positive results, and having sustained and repeated success for nearly the entirety of their career.

    LeBron cannot be the GOAT based on this logical and progressive approach to analyzing success in tangible results.

    Jordan dominated HS, dominated College, and dominated the NBA like no other, and had sustained team success. Not Shaq, not Kobe, not LeBron, nobody has done it as good as him. Russell is the only one that comes close, but the era he played in made it easier to have sustained success.

  2. #152
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    Lebron James Road to the title

    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Grant was an all star and Pippen got 3rd in MVP voting without Jordan in 94 and as a team they put up a good fight with the Knicks, within range of ECF. Phil is an all time great coach to most. They are considered greats to most and always picked in the redrafts (Pippen often quite high).

    Lebron isn't anything like Jordan but his career/impact on the court is arguably right there which we haven't been able to say about anyone else really before with decent reasoning (outside maybe Kaj). I am not saying Lebron is necessarily better but I can/have seen some legitimate arguments pointing that way.

    The point being made though is Bulls were close to ECF without Jordan and the competition they faced with him was often quite clearly inferior. Choosing where you play or being gifted talent is pretty irrelevant when comparing talent/competition compared to others.
    Grant was an all star bc he was on a really good team. He was the same as Charles Oakley and Othis Thorpe. Pippen was legit but he was also most controversial inclusion in the NBAís orginal top 50 of all time list. The ESPN LeBron narrative has made him the only guy who jumps guys on the list in instead of falling off it over time. No their impact is not similar and the over emphasis on the Pippen Bulls winning a playoff series and holding there own to lose in 6 in the second round is pretty laughable. They were also sub .500 the next year before Jordan returned.


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  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    Grant was an all star bc he was on a really good team. Pippen was legit but he was also most controversial inclusion in the NBAís orginal top 50 of all time list. The ESPN LeBron narrative has made him the only guy who jumps guys on the list in instead of falling off it over time. No their impact is not similar and the over emphasis on the Pippen Bulls winning a playoff series and holding there own to lose in 6 in the second round is pretty laughable. They were also sub .500 the next year before Jordan returned.


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    That is part of my point, they had a really good team without MJ even there when he made the all star team (he got slight usage boost, was already considered great defender). I don't know about that, most of the time he is picked in the top 30 range or so for all time games at least and many rankings have him in 50, this isn't ESPN related.

    I think most understand if you have a team capable of making the 2nd round (and being competitive) then add a GOAT level player what that means in terms of winning. They declined below .500 when they lost Grant and that specific team with MJ on it lost in the playoffs to the Magic this is helping my point (next year added Rodman to fill defense/rebounding need). Lebrons teams often drop off immediately when he leaves, the talent often isn't comparable (heat being main exception when he went back home but even they fell off due to other circumstances). I also noted the differences in competition that haven't been covered, Curry/Klay/Dray/KD for example isn't comparable to anyone being faced so losing to them is different and even without KD when he won with Cavs.

    What is laughable is ignoring this actual context of talent/competition to focus on the how as meaningful. I also am not sure how you call my point that then ignore Grant leaving to make a disingenuous one? I am including legitimate context and not leaving factors like this out.
    Last edited by mngopher35; 06-07-2021 at 12:30 AM.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by NBA all the way View Post
    Ik the win% isn't great but getting to the finals 10 times so far is just bonkers, only been done by KAJ as well in the modern NBA.
    So say MJ in 1987 goes to Detroit and wins 3 titles and then back to Chicago or Houston and gets 2-3 more and then goes to San Antonio or Utah or Seattle and gets 3 more. Essentially that is what Lebron is doing joining forces and creating teams that are already contenders.

    Also consider Lebron never 3 peated despite forming superteams 3 times is an indictment on him.
    "Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."
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  5. #155
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    Lebron James Road to the title

    Quote Originally Posted by JordansBulls View Post
    So say MJ in 1987 goes to Detroit and wins 3 titles and then back to Chicago or Houston and gets 2-3 more and then goes to San Antonio or Utah or Seattle and gets 3 more. Essentially that is what Lebron is doing joining forces and creating teams that are already contenders.

    Also consider Lebron never 3 peated despite forming superteams 3 times is an indictment on him.

    Sorry wrong post

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  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    That is part of my point, they had a really good team without MJ even there when he made the all star team (he got slight usage boost, was already considered great defender). I don't know about that, most of the time he is picked in the top 30 range or so for all time games at least and many rankings have him in 50, this isn't ESPN related.

    I think most understand if you have a team capable of making the 2nd round (and being competitive) then add a GOAT level player what that means in terms of winning. They declined below .500 when they lost Grant and that specific team with MJ on it lost in the playoffs to the Magic this is helping my point (next year added Rodman to fill defense/rebounding need). Lebrons teams often drop off immediately when he leaves, the talent often isn't comparable (heat being main exception when he went back home but even they fell off due to other circumstances). I also noted the differences in competition that haven't been covered, Curry/Klay/Dray/KD for example isn't comparable to anyone being faced so losing to them is different and even without KD when he won with Cavs.

    What is laughable is ignoring this actual context of talent/competition to focus on the how as meaningful. That you followed up calling my point laughable while ignoring Grant had left the team by then (to join the one that beat them in the playoffs putting up 18/11 in the series) is also a little disingenuous imo.
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  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    You are right you donít know.


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    Are you saying I am wrong about information I have shared/don't know other aspects you can fill in for me type thing?

    Or

    Is this more to deflect from sharing partial information leaving out a key aspect helping my point, blaming MSM/ESPN randomly, and not really having a counter to the general point?

    If it is the former please let me know what it is I didn't know about, I think we have both seen the latter enough to know there is no point though so we can move on...
    Last edited by mngopher35; 06-07-2021 at 01:11 AM.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    Players are judged on sustained success, accolades (consensus perception), and winning. Right? From the base level....

    Nobody becomes an all-star off of one 30pt game. It's consistent and repeated dominant games.

    Nobody becomes an All-NBA based on a good few weeks it's the whole season dominating individually and pushing their team's success.

    Nobody becomes a HOF player without dominating a league for multiple seasons individually and pushing their team to achieve positive results for multiple seasons.

    Nobody becomes the GOAT without dominating individually, pushing their team to achieve positive results, and having sustained and repeated success for nearly the entirety of their career.

    LeBron cannot be the GOAT based on this logical and progressive approach to analyzing success in tangible results.

    Jordan dominated HS, dominated College, and dominated the NBA like no other, and had sustained team success. Not Shaq, not Kobe, not LeBron, nobody has done it as good as him. Russell is the only one that comes close, but the era he played in made it easier to have sustained success.
    LeBron won NBA championships with 3 different franchises, how is that not sustained?

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by JordansBulls View Post
    So say MJ in 1987 goes to Detroit and wins 3 titles and then back to Chicago or Houston and gets 2-3 more and then goes to San Antonio or Utah or Seattle and gets 3 more. Essentially that is what Lebron is doing joining forces and creating teams that are already contenders.

    Also consider Lebron never 3 peated despite forming superteams 3 times is an indictment on him.
    Idk if that is factually accurate though.

    The year before LeBron joined the Heat they were 47-35. The only carry overs were Wade, Arroyo, Joel Anthony, Chalmers, Haslem, Jones, and Maglorie.

    The year before LeBron returned to the Cavs they were 33-49. The only carry overs were Kyrie, Thompson, Delly, and Varejao.

    The year before LeBron joined the Lakers they were 35-47. The only carry overs were KCP, Ball, Kuzma, Ingram, Caruso, Hart, and Zubac.

    This isn't KD joining a 73-9 team the year before.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    Grant was an all star bc he was on a really good team. He was the same as Charles Oakley and Othis Thorpe.
    Oakley and Thorpe were both All-Stars in their careers.

    Pippen was legit but he was also most controversial inclusion in the NBAís orginal top 50 of all time list.
    Says who? Pippen was better than a lot of guys on that list. Ask any casual NBA fan, and Pippen's likely in their top 25-30 players of all-time. Even fans who loathe the guy or don't value him as much as a No. 2 would still rank him in their top 40. Most Rockets fans absolutely detest the guy, but he's still high on my all-time list.

    The ESPN LeBron narrative has made him the only guy who jumps guys on the list in instead of falling off it over time. No their impact is not similar and the over emphasis on the Pippen Bulls winning a playoff series and holding there own to lose in 6 in the second round is pretty laughable. They were also sub .500 the next year before Jordan returned.
    This is false. The Bulls were 34-31 before Jordan returned. People also forget that they lost Horace Grant after the 94 season, so that 94-95 Bulls team played without Jordan AND Grant for 80% of the season before Jordan returned. The fact that they were above .500 given how little top tier talent was around Pippen is actually impressive if you think about it.


  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by blams View Post
    What about Jordan failing with the Wizards?

    It's not an excuse. To actually criticisize the dude for failing while almost 37, one legged, with zero impact 3 pt shooters, and at the amount of minutes he's played....is incredibly ignorant.
    This is interesting because most people rightly give MJ a pass for his time on the Wizards because of how old he was, and yet LeBron is approaching as old as MJ was at that point. It will be interesting to see how LeBron's age 38 and 39 seasons stack up to MJ's.

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    This is interesting because most people rightly give MJ a pass for his time on the Wizards because of how old he was, and yet LeBron is approaching as old as MJ was at that point. It will be interesting to see how LeBron's age 38 and 39 seasons stack up to MJ's.
    It should be far worse because he's played significantly more basketball (already) That's why I refer to his "basketball age" being right there with Malone as the 2nd oldest ever.

    KAJ is still a bit ahead minutes wise.

    Jordan isn't even near them lol


    If LeBron is still dangerous in the playoffs at that age it'll be crazy

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  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    This is interesting because most people rightly give MJ a pass for his time on the Wizards because of how old he was, and yet LeBron is approaching as old as MJ was at that point. It will be interesting to see how LeBron's age 38 and 39 seasons stack up to MJ's.
    I think Lebron wants to play until he gets 40000 points as long as he doesnt completely break down. Im sure he wants to get the all-time scoring record which he is on pace to get towards the end of 22-23 which would put him 38 at that time, and probably needing 2 more years to get to 40000 putting him 40 if he gets there
    Last edited by MarkieMark48; 06-07-2021 at 03:04 PM.
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  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Are you saying I am wrong about information I have shared/don't know other aspects you can fill in for me type thing?

    Or

    Is this more to deflect from sharing partial information leaving out a key aspect helping my point, blaming MSM/ESPN randomly, and not really having a counter to the general point?

    If it is the former please let me know what it is I didn't know about, I think we have both seen the latter enough to know there is no point though so we can move on...
    Thatís what he does. Runs when confronted with facts. You just got Ewinged.

  15. #165
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    Lebron James Road to the title

    Quote Originally Posted by Saddletramp View Post
    Thatís what he does. Runs when confronted with facts. You just got Ewinged.
    I couldn't possibly defend myself against such the argument that OGM they got to the second round without him. Jordan was better. Getting to the second round isn't some amazing accomplishment. Micheal was the best player all of the time. Go look at crunch time #s in big game lol. Pick a playoff series. One time we looked at every playoff series Jordan ever played. When they smoked the Nets in the first round Pippen had better #s and Bird had comparable #s once! Other than those two series MJ was unquestionably the best player for the series every single time. Not even debatable. No one touched him. It not that LeBron isn't great. He is but sometimes there is a guy that is just the best. MJ dominated this sport like no one ever has. As for Scottie, he went from underrated during his time to overrated historically b/c comparing LBJ to MJ sells. These things are just true.
    Last edited by ewing; 06-07-2021 at 03:49 PM.
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