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  1. #481
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
    You are trying really hard to say we know what someone would have done if his successful attempt to end his life with a gun would have done if it had not worked.
    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    I donít think he is trying to say what a particular person would do.
    Exactly. I'm not trying to say that at all.

    I'm saying places with more guns have more suicides and places with less guns have less suicides. Guns absolutely affect the suicide rates of an area. Whether you think someone would have committed suicide even without a gun is irrelevant, the numbers specifically say more guns will result in more suicides.

  2. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Exactly. I'm not trying to say that at all.

    I'm saying places with more guns have more suicides and places with less guns have less suicides. Guns absolutely affect the suicide rates of an area. Whether you think someone would have committed suicide even without a gun is irrelevant, the numbers specifically say more guns will result in more suicides.
    You would have to show that there is a correlation. There could be, there could not be. Just saying/showing that there is higher guns being owned in states with higher gun suicides does not mean more guns owned in a state means higher gun suicides.

    It's akin to saying that since the removal of prayer in US public schools in 1962 violent crime has skyrocketed, divorce has increased 200+%, and teen suicide rates has increased three fold. All of that is true, but is it because that prayer was removed from the public schools? There would need to be a better link than just the stats.

    The topic is that guns save more lives than they cost. No one has yet to show that to be false.
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  3. #483
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
    You would have to show that there is a correlation. There could be, there could not be. Just saying/showing that there is higher guns being owned in states with higher gun suicides does not mean more guns owned in a state means higher gun suicides.

    It's akin to saying that since the removal of prayer in US public schools in 1962 violent crime has skyrocketed, divorce has increased 200+%, and teen suicide rates has increased three fold. All of that is true, but is it because that prayer was removed from the public schools? There would need to be a better link than just the stats.

    The topic is that guns save more lives than they cost. No one has yet to show that to be false.
    The study did show there was a correlation. The study accounted for other factors to include rural vs urban, inner city, impoverished areas, affluent areas, crime rates, etc. The correlation held up.

    I.e. in rural areas with low crime more guns equaled more suicides and less guns equaled less suicides. In inner city high crime areas more guns equaled more suicides and less guns equaled less suicides.

    And so on and so forth. The determining factor on an areas increase or decrease in suicides was the number of guns.

  4. #484
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    The study did show there was a correlation. The study accounted for other factors to include rural vs urban, inner city, impoverished areas, affluent areas, crime rates, etc. The correlation held up.

    I.e. in rural areas with low crime more guns equaled more suicides and less guns equaled less suicides. In inner city high crime areas more guns equaled more suicides and less guns equaled less suicides.

    And so on and so forth. The determining factor on an areas increase or decrease in suicides was the number of guns.
    It seems to hold when you look at private vs public schools as well, and yet that's not correlation.

    Again, guns save more than cost. That's the topic. "Are guns bad?" and the answer is save more than cost
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  5. #485
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
    It seems to hold when you look at private vs public schools as well, and yet that's not correlation.

    Again, guns save more than cost. That's the topic. "Are guns bad?" and the answer is save more than cost
    This is a pretty impressive job of ignoring the statistics and facts presented to make a claim that entirely contradicts the statistics and facts.
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  6. #486
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    This is a pretty impressive job of ignoring the statistics and facts presented to make a claim that entirely contradicts the statistics and facts.
    I ignored nothing. I presented facts about the increase in certain societal ills since school prayer was removed from public schools. The correlation might be there but needs more. Same way, the correlation might be there on guns more likely to commit suicide but it needs more.

    But hey, don't start being honest now.
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  7. #487
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
    It seems to hold when you look at private vs public schools as well, and yet that's not correlation.

    Again, guns save more than cost. That's the topic. "Are guns bad?" and the answer is save more than cost
    But they never did the inverse, nor did they adjust for alternative factors. There is definite correlation between guns and suicides, as well as the inverse (lack of guns, lack of suicides).

  8. #488
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
    I ignored nothing. I presented facts about the increase in certain societal ills since school prayer was removed from public schools. The correlation might be there but needs more. Same way, the correlation might be there on guns more likely to commit suicide but it needs more.

    But hey, don't start being honest now.
    If you want to be honest, just say you don't care how many people die of guns as long as you get your hands on those big, pulsating, things.
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  9. #489
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    If you want to be honest, just say you don't care how many people die of guns as long as you get your hands on those big, pulsating, things.
    I don't own a gun. I am pro-gun anti-gun. Pro for everyone else, anti for me.

    Nice try though.
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  10. #490
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
    I don't own a gun. I am pro-gun anti-gun. Pro for everyone else, anti for me.
    I get the sentiment. I am pro-abortion for everyone else and anti-abortion for me.

  11. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    The study did show there was a correlation. The study accounted for other factors to include rural vs urban, inner city, impoverished areas, affluent areas, crime rates, etc. The correlation held up.

    I.e. in rural areas with low crime more guns equaled more suicides and less guns equaled less suicides. In inner city high crime areas more guns equaled more suicides and less guns equaled less suicides.

    And so on and so forth. The determining factor on an areas increase or decrease in suicides was the number of guns.
    The only thing I wondered about was the factor of why these houses chose to get a gun in the first place, but that's not available data. It's not unreasonable to think there could be correlation between "needing a gun" and suicidal thoughts.

  12. 06-18-2021, 11:18 AM
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    Unnecessary

  13. #492
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    The only thing I wondered about was the factor of why these houses chose to get a gun in the first place, but that's not available data. It's not unreasonable to think there could be correlation between "needing a gun" and suicidal thoughts.
    There could be a correlation sure, but I don't think it fully explains the phenomenon, since a lot of the states in question are ones where guns are ubiquitous with the culture. I don't think the reason everyone has a gun in Wyoming is as you're saying.

  14. #493
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    There could be a correlation sure, but I don't think it fully explains the phenomenon, since a lot of the states in question are ones where guns are ubiquitous with the culture. I don't think the reason everyone has a gun in Wyoming is as you're saying.
    No, that's going too far the other way. If, for example, people feel unsafe so they get a gun, that lack of feeling safe can lead to depression and depression can lead to suicide. Wyoming has around 66% homes with guns so 34% choose not to have guns. Definitely common, but I don't know that for me 66% reaches the level of ubiquity. I also wonder what percentage of Wyoming suicides are by long gun and what percentage of those homes are long guns vs pistols. Certainly the preferred tool of suicide is the pistol.

  15. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    No, that's going too far the other way. If, for example, people feel unsafe so they get a gun, that lack of feeling safe can lead to depression and depression can lead to suicide. Wyoming has around 66% homes with guns so 34% choose not to have guns. Definitely common, but I don't know that for me 66% reaches the level of ubiquity. I also wonder what percentage of Wyoming suicides are by long gun and what percentage of those homes are long guns vs pistols. Certainly the preferred tool of suicide is the pistol.
    Wyoming has the highest percentage of households with guns of any state in the US, it is more ingrained in the culture to have one there than anywhere else in the US. The idea that a large amount of their guns is because they are only getting them to commit suicide seems a tad ridiculous, most households have them due to the culture and to hunt.

    Even if you want to surmise that the reason there are more suicides and more guns in Wyoming is because everyone is just going and buying a gun because they feel depressed enough to commit suicide, then that's strong evidence that the more stringent gun laws work to reduce suicides because the people in those states aren't able to get a gun and commit suicide leading to increased rates as they can in Wyoming.

  16. #495
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Wyoming has the highest percentage of households with guns of any state in the US, it is more ingrained in the culture to have one there than anywhere else in the US. The idea that a large amount of their guns is because they are only getting them to commit suicide seems a tad ridiculous, most households have them due to the culture and to hunt.

    Even if you want to surmise that the reason there are more suicides and more guns in Wyoming is because everyone is just going and buying a gun because they feel depressed enough to commit suicide, then that's strong evidence that the more stringent gun laws work to reduce suicides because the people in those states aren't able to get a gun and commit suicide leading to increased rates as they can in Wyoming.
    No, what I was saying was that people who are in situations in life where they feel they need a gun are also more likely to be depressed so there could be some correlation between wanting a gun and eventual suicide. Crap life situations bring on the gun and the suicidal thoughts is the idea. So while guns make suicide easier, situations that lead to suicidal thoughts also lead to acquiring guns not as simple as suicidal people buy guns.

    The other point I was asking was the percentage of Wyoming homes with guns are long guns compared to the suicide rate with long guns.

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