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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by drt1010 View Post
    If he doesn't find some command he may not have much of a career to extend! His eight home runs allowed are tied for the fourth-most in the majors. His 74 ERA+ means he has been 26% worse than the league average. With a -0.2 bWAR and 0.4 fWAR. His FB is getting lit up, he throws that pitch 50.4% of the time. The highest % of his career. His K% (11.6 K/9) are the highest he's ever recorded. Bottom line he's getting hit and hit hard. He may be missing more bats, but those that are connecting are leaving the park or finding the gaps. He's throwing his 4 seam FB more with mixed results.
    Well none of that should come as a surprise if that comes to fruition considering he has had two Tommy johns . This is why I was so against that trade from day 1 . But atleast if he is moved to the pen and takes cessa’s spot in the bullpen there is a chance he could lengthen his career .
    Last edited by Posada20; 05-16-2021 at 07:41 PM.

  2. #182
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    I still trying to understand the importance about 2TJS when he's already here. He cost less than 2M and was a risk reward type trade. We certainly don't know that he's done as a starter, we just know what he's doing right now isn't being incredibly effective.

    He's still working his way back and working on a total rebuilt motion, if anything that is a reason to give him more time.

    When pretty much the entire league looking for starting pitching, making him a full time reliever until we know for sure he can't be a starter would be a little foolish. There is that old saying, you can never have too much starting pitching

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by dayners81 View Post
    I still trying to understand the importance about 2TJS when he's already here. He cost less than 2M and was a risk reward type trade. We certainly don't know that he's done as a starter, we just know what he's doing right now isn't being incredibly effective.

    He's still working his way back and working on a total rebuilt motion, if anything that is a reason to give him more time.

    When pretty much the entire league looking for starting pitching, making him a full time reliever until we know for sure he can't be a starter would be a little foolish. There is that old saying, you can never have too much starting pitching
    Here is why two Tommy Johns is such a big deal . https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-mlb-pitchers/

    The article itself says that after 2 tommy Johns on average pitchers end up pitching less innings wise after wards than pitchers who have had 1 or none . In other words their careers are often cut short . That is why I think moving tailon to the bullpen is a smart move .

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by dayners81 View Post
    I still trying to understand the importance about 2TJS when he's already here. He cost less than 2M and was a risk reward type trade. We certainly don't know that he's done as a starter, we just know what he's doing right now isn't being incredibly effective.

    He's still working his way back and working on a total rebuilt motion, if anything that is a reason to give him more time.

    When pretty much the entire league looking for starting pitching, making him a full time reliever until we know for sure he can't be a starter would be a little foolish. There is that old saying, you can never have too much starting pitching
    Day I agree he is a work in progress. Yankees are trying to reinvent his approach. I am beginning to wonder if that's the problem. He's never thrown this many FB's in his career ( 50.4%). In the past he had success throwing his sinker more often than the FB. Yankees have all but abandoned the sinker in favor of the 4 seamer. Just a guess on my part as to the cause - effect. I'm no pitching coach but I did stay at a Holiday inn Express last night.

    He isn't costing them much, if it works it's all upside. In the mean time he has to get command of a pitch he isn't comfortable throwing a majority of the time. He has the velo, it's the command and I would guess his comfort level that is in question. I wonder can that much of an adjustment be made? Can it have consequence to his arm?

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Posada20 View Post
    Here is why two Tommy Johns is such a big deal . https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-mlb-pitchers/

    The article itself says that after 2 tommy Johns on average pitchers end up pitching less innings wise after wards than pitchers who have had 1 or none . In other words their careers are often cut short . That is why I think moving tailon to the bullpen is a smart move .
    One important detail Jorge. How old were the pitchers at the time of the second surgery?

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by drt1010 View Post
    Day I agree he is a work in progress. Yankees are trying to reinvent his approach. I am beginning to wonder if that's the problem. He's never thrown this many FB's in his career ( 50.4%). In the past he had success throwing his sinker more often than the FB. Yankees have all but abandoned the sinker in favor of the 4 seamer. Just a guess on my part as to the cause - effect. I'm no pitching coach but I did stay at a Holiday inn Express last night.

    He isn't costing them much, if it works it's all upside. In the mean time he has to get command of a pitch he isn't comfortable throwing a majority of the time. He has the velo, it's the command and I would guess his comfort level that is in question. I wonder can that much of an adjustment be made? Can it have consequence to his arm?
    The new motion was designed to be much less stressful on the arm than his old motion. IMO its probably a combo of not being completely comfortable with the new motion and try to adjust his approach.

    He had a really good sinker, I don't know why he stopped throwing that pitch. Lots of really good pitchers have used a sinker and 4 seam. It would give him another pitch to change hitters eye levels. It would atleast give him another option down to keep balls in the park.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by drt1010 View Post
    One important detail Jorge. How old were the pitchers at the time of the second surgery?
    Does it really matter ? The article if you read it doesn’t mention ages either . If you want an example of a young pitcher who’s career was derailed by 2 tommy Johns , look no further than Christian Garcia. He had his second at 25 and was out of baseball 4 years later . Tailon had his second at 26. I am not saying for sure tailon will be done as a starter soon but the odds are not in his favor that he will be a starter long term . Like it or not a second TJ surgery shortens careers . That is why I am for moving him to the bullpen .
    Last edited by Posada20; 05-16-2021 at 10:06 PM.

  8. #188
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    I also wanted to point out that although Monty had nothing today, the lack of offense after the first was equally the culprit. I mean they really look like they mailed it in. Zimmerman? Really? They already clobbered him this year and he lost his job on a horrible pitching team to begin with. Not trying to pick on the guy but he couldn’t get ours in a PAL softball league. The idea the Yankees couldn’t get anything done off him tells me they mailed it in after the 1st.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Posada20 View Post
    Does it really matter ? The article if you read it doesn’t mention ages either . If you want an example of a young pitcher who’s career was derailed by 2 tommy Johns , look no further than Christian Garcia. He had his second at 25 and was out of baseball 4 years later . Tailon had his second at 26. I am not saying for sure tailon will be done as a starter soon but the odds are not in his favor that he will be a starter long term . Like it or not a second TJ surgery shortens careers . That is why I am for moving him to the bullpen .
    Yes of course it matters. The older the player the more wear and tear on the body in general, and the arm, elbow in particular. Rehab is more difficult. The body is not quite as resilient. The throwing motion is an unnatural movement that palaces unusual stress on ligaments, joints ect. Do the research, vast majority of players who have a second surgery do so in their 30's in an attempt to prolong a career. The two you mentions may be the exception rather than the rule.

    I am not suggesting performance doesn't suffer in some pitchers following a second surgery. I am suggesting it is not a given, and due to age at which it is done there may be other mitigating issues. Simply, age is a factor, wear and tear are factors, number of innings and type of pitches thrown are factors.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by strahan92osi72 View Post
    I also wanted to point out that although Monty had nothing today, the lack of offense after the first was equally the culprit. I mean they really look like they mailed it in. Zimmerman? Really? They already clobbered him this year and he lost his job on a horrible pitching team to begin with. Not trying to pick on the guy but he couldn’t get ours in a PAL softball league. The idea the Yankees couldn’t get anything done off him tells me they mailed it in after the 1st.
    Cant agree the offense is to blame when the pitching alllowed 8 runs . If the pitching is any good 5 runs should be enough to win the game .

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by drt1010 View Post
    Yes of course it matters. The older the player the more wear and tear on the body in general, and the arm, elbow in particular. Rehab is more difficult. The body is not quite as resilient. The throwing motion is an unnatural movement that palaces unusual stress on ligaments, joints ect. Do the research, vast majority of players who have a second surgery do so in their 30's in an attempt to prolong a career. The two you mentions may be the exception rather than the rule.

    I am not suggesting performance doesn't suffer in some pitchers following a second surgery. I am suggesting it is not a given, and due to age at which it is done there may be other mitigating issues. Simply, age is a factor, wear and tear are factors, number of innings and type of pitches thrown are factors.
    Do yourself a favor and actually read the article . It states from doctors who performed the surgery that pitchers who have had 2 tommy Johns have their career shortened because they pitch less innings and less games afterwards regardless their ages .
    Last edited by Posada20; 05-16-2021 at 11:49 PM.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Posada20 View Post
    Do yourself a favor and actually read the article . It states from doctors who performed the surgery that pitchers who have had 2 tommy Johns have their career shortened because they pitch less innings and less games afterwards regardless their ages .
    Cut the crap Jorge. I have read more articles (and written) in my lifetime than you have googled.

    Again you resort to your favor tactic, relocation. I don't dispute that careers are shortened, less innings are pitched ect. My point from the outset, age is a factor. Wear and tear prior to second surgery are factors. Innings pitched and type of pitches thrown are factors. Doesn;t logic dictate if a second surgery is required the arm / elbow have been stressed to the point that repair is required? UCL injury is believed to be tied to the overuse and excessive stress on the inner elbow, due to prolonged and repetitive pitching velocity and joint motion. These aren't healthy arms going in for surgery.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by drt1010 View Post
    Cut the crap Jorge. I have read more articles (and written) in my lifetime than you have googled.

    Again you resort to your favor tactic, relocation. I don't dispute that careers are shortened, less innings are pitched ect. My point from the outset, age is a factor. Wear and tear prior to second surgery are factors. Innings pitched and type of pitches thrown are factors. Doesn;t logic dictate if a second surgery is required the arm / elbow have been stressed to the point that repair is required? UCL injury is believed to be tied to the overuse and excessive stress on the inner elbow, due to prolonged and repetitive pitching velocity and joint motion. These aren't healthy arms going in for surgery.
    You cut the crap . You are the one who used the relocation tactic by bringing up age when the article clearly didn’t bring up age and I didn’t either. My only point was that two Tommy Johns shorten careers , that is it. . Regardless of age . And I already poked holes in age being a factor when I brought up Christian Garcia as an example of a young pitcher who’s career was derailed by two Tommy Johns . The reason why it’s happening to younger pitchers too is because how they throw and how many innings they threw in the minors and long before that . Not age so try again. If age was truly a factor you wouldn’t be seeing so many pitchers getting Tommy Johns before the age of 30 these days .
    Last edited by Posada20; 05-17-2021 at 12:41 AM.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Posada20 View Post
    Does it really matter ? The article if you read it doesn’t mention ages either . If you want an example of a young pitcher who’s career was derailed by 2 tommy Johns , look no further than Christian Garcia. He had his second at 25 and was out of baseball 4 years later . Tailon had his second at 26. I am not saying for sure tailon will be done as a starter soon but the odds are not in his favor that he will be a starter long term . Like it or not a second TJ surgery shortens careers . That is why I am for moving him to the bullpen .
    You are aware we all have said that? You are aware we are all conscious of that possibility?
    You just don't read. You just presume you are the only one who thinks or said it.

    You just choose to believe that he will fail. Others choose to give him a half a season or so to see.

    Jorge the guy with the manure truck full but the glass half empty.



    Ignorance is bliss

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by drt1010 View Post
    One important detail Jorge. How old were the pitchers at the time of the second surgery?
    Another important fact. This is a guy who destroyed the Post as a BS paper. But now uses it to support an argument.

    Another fact. A certain poster is posting ideas as his own when they are not.

    Another fact. A certain poster has chosen to take a negative stance towards a signing and now that it looks like the move may not live up to what we had hoped, seems to be acting like he's the only one who thought this could be an outcome so he is playing "I told you so" but playing it to a room of people who absolutely knew this outcome could happen but chose to give the pitcher a chance before condemning him and who thought the signing was with the risk.
    Last edited by Kinkotheclown; 05-17-2021 at 06:43 AM.



    Ignorance is bliss

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