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Thread: All-NBA

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManningToTyree View Post
    Randle leads the league in minutes so the Knicks scoring average when he isnít on the court is a small sample to use to judge his impact.


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    it's not a small sample size lol. By the end of the season it'll be about 20 games worth of minutes with him off the floor, nearly a 1/3rd of the season. That's a healthy sample.

    The other thing that sticks out is that the Knicks still have a slightly below league average Ortg with him on the court, so it's not like the Knicks are rolling on all cylinders when he's out there. They're simply a mediocre offense either way.

    And in fact, if anything Randle leading the league in minutes should give you pause on his raw volume. It's reflective of the fact that he simply has the ball in his hands a ton, as opposed to being an actual high value scoring presence or playmaking presence. He scores on league average efficiency, like so many other ineffective high volume scorers lost to NBA history (looking at you, Michael Adams).

    Nobody in this thread has actually articulated how his presence on offense affects his team, they just revert to "herrr derrr PPG 4th seed". Like yeah, I'm sure the Knicks are the 4 seed because of their 23rd ranked offense, and not their 3rd ranked defense.
    Last edited by VCaintdead17; 05-15-2021 at 12:39 AM.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by VCaintdead17 View Post
    Jokic
    Giannis
    LeBron
    Steph
    Luka

    Embiid
    Kawhi
    Butler
    Dame
    Harden

    Gobert
    Tatum
    Zion
    PG
    CP3

    Trae, Kyrie and Booker should be in consideration for the guard positions as well. KD has missed too many games, as has AD. There's essentially zero evidence for Randle having an All NBA impact on offense, as the Knicks score the same amount of points per possession regardless of whether or not he's on the court, on a very mediocre team offense.

    Also your reasoning for keeping Harden off is super dumb and based in your feelings instead of how he's actually played lol
    no embiid first team my god you cant ever put your bias aside. Embiid and jokic should and will finish 1 and 2 in mvp voting yet somehow embiid isnt all nba first team

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by VCaintdead17 View Post
    it's not a small sample size lol. By the end of the season it'll be about 20 games worth of minutes with him off the floor, nearly a 1/3rd of the season. That's a healthy sample.

    The other thing that sticks out is that the Knicks still have a slightly below league average Ortg with him on the court, so it's not like the Knicks are rolling on all cylinders when he's out there. They're simply a mediocre offense either way.

    And in fact, if anything Randle leading the league in minutes should give you pause on his raw volume. It's reflective of the fact that he simply has the ball in his hands a ton, as opposed to being an actual high value scoring presence or playmaking presence. He scores on league average efficiency, like so many other ineffective high volume scorers lost to NBA history (looking at you, Michael Adams).

    Nobody in this thread has actually articulated how his presence on offense affects his team, they just revert to "herrr derrr PPG 4th seed". Like yeah, I'm sure the Knicks are the 4 seed because of their 23rd ranked offense, and not their 3rd ranked defense.
    this is the problem with these dumbass stats... Randle has been **** on his entire career for empty stats and now that he is doing it on a playoff team we are still trying to justify the empty stat **** when he is leading them to the playoffs as a top 4 seed for the first time in how long? jesus christ

    so we are hurting embiid and lebron for games missed but hurting randle for games played and minutes played? genius

  4. #19
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    All-NBA

    Quote Originally Posted by VCaintdead17 View Post
    it's not a small sample size lol. By the end of the season it'll be about 20 games worth of minutes with him off the floor, nearly a 1/3rd of the season. That's a healthy sample.

    The other thing that sticks out is that the Knicks still have a slightly below league average Ortg with him on the court, so it's not like the Knicks are rolling on all cylinders when he's out there. They're simply a mediocre offense either way.

    And in fact, if anything Randle leading the league in minutes should give you pause on his raw volume. It's reflective of the fact that he simply has the ball in his hands a ton, as opposed to being an actual high value scoring presence or playmaking presence. He scores on league average efficiency, like so many other ineffective high volume scorers lost to NBA history (looking at you, Michael Adams).

    Nobody in this thread has actually articulated how his presence on offense affects his team, they just revert to "herrr derrr PPG 4th seed". Like yeah, I'm sure the Knicks are the 4 seed because of their 23rd ranked offense, and not their 3rd ranked defense.
    The Knicks offense has improved significantly in the second half of the season. It is also boons when Elfrid Payton isnít on the floor. Lastly the team wont struggle w/o Randle cause Randle is summoned from the bench at the first sign of potential trouble. In the Knicks last gams against the Spurs Thibs didnít even wait for a sign. Rose has been the second unit engine recently. He was out. How did Thibs respond? 45 mins for Randle and 3 for Toppin- who has been playing really good of late. Randle has been fantastic creating for himself and others. Look at the 3 point shooting from guys like Barrett and Bolluck. Then look at what they are shooting when Randle doesnít pass them the ball. He is the one responsible


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    Last edited by ewing; 05-15-2021 at 08:44 AM.
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    no embiid first team my god you cant ever put your bias aside. Embiid and jokic should and will finish 1 and 2 in mvp voting yet somehow embiid isnt all nba first team
    I mean Embiid should be first team as well but the NBA loves to do the position centric thing. If it were up to me it'd be positionless, and Embiid would be an obvious first teamer. As it stands that's not the case so I tried to acknowledge that in my post

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    The Knicks offense has improved significantly in the second half of the season. It is also boons when Elfrid Payton isnít on the floor. Lastly the team wont struggle w/o Randle cause Randle is summoned from the bench at the first sign of potential trouble. In the Knicks last gams against the Spurs Thibs didnít even wait for a sign. Rose has been the second unit engine recently. He was out. How did Thibs respond? 45 mins for Randle and 3 for Toppin- who has been playing really good of late. Randle has been fantastic creating for himself and others. Look at the 3 point shooting from guys like Barrett and Bolluck. Then look at what they are shooting when Randle doesnít pass them the ball. He is the one responsible


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    nah my dude you're still just talking out of your ***. Knicks are 17th in Ortg post all star break so....still mediocre. Also I love how I explicitly asked for non-anecdotal reasoning and you reply with a re-telling of what happened in your memory. Which isn't really surprising, considering this is how you operate in every conversation since you're incapable of actually breaking down player evaluation. How have you watched basketball for this long and still don't know how to support your arguments with actual evidence? Yikes

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    this is the problem with these dumbass stats... Randle has been **** on his entire career for empty stats and now that he is doing it on a playoff team we are still trying to justify the empty stat **** when he is leading them to the playoffs as a top 4 seed for the first time in how long? jesus christ

    so we are hurting embiid and lebron for games missed but hurting randle for games played and minutes played? genius
    Again, do you think the Knicks are the (now sixth seed) because Randle is leading them to the 23rd best offense in the league? Is it possible that they're in the playoffs because they have a top 3 defense?

    The easy rebuttal to this should be, "Well they'd have the WORST offense in the league without him!!!!"

    ....except their offensive rating is literally exactly the same without him on the court.

    And since you agree that he previously put up empty stats, what's different about his numbers this season? To me the only difference is he's doing it with a fantastic defense behind him...that's literally it. That's the only difference. He hasn't raised his efficiency (and is actually lower than it's been in previous seasons on similar volume), he's raised his assists slightly on a per possession basis (also a result of playing pseudo point guard), but that's not enough to warrant anything close to All NBA lmao.


    Explain to me why his offense is better this season despite the lowered efficiency on the same volume (when adjusted for pace) that he had in New Orleans, and why you're crediting it for the Knicks win pace.
    Last edited by VCaintdead17; 05-15-2021 at 11:04 AM.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by VCaintdead17 View Post
    I mean Embiid should be first team as well but the NBA loves to do the position centric thing. If it were up to me it'd be positionless, and Embiid would be an obvious first teamer. As it stands that's not the case so I tried to acknowledge that in my post
    Embiid is a F/C on All-NBA lists sent to voters, so this isnít true.


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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    Embiid is a F/C on All-NBA lists sent to voters, so this isnít true.


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    Wasn't aware he qualified as a forward since play by play data shows he's played 100% of his career minutes at Center, so my mistake.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    LeBron has played like 10 more games than KD or AD. It's interesting people are saying they've missed too much time but he's a lock.
    10 more games in a shortened 72-game season is actually a lot.

  11. #26
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    All-NBA

    Quote Originally Posted by VCaintdead17 View Post
    nah my dude you're still just talking out of your ***. Knicks are 17th in Ortg post all star break so....still mediocre. Also I love how I explicitly asked for non-anecdotal reasoning and you reply with a re-telling of what happened in your memory. Which isn't really surprising, considering this is how you operate in every conversation since you're incapable of actually breaking down player evaluation. How have you watched basketball for this long and still don't know how to support your arguments with actual evidence? Yikes
    If you want look something up do it. This is just your fall back when you make a bad argument

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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by VCaintdead17 View Post
    Again, do you think the Knicks are the (now sixth seed) because Randle is leading them to the 23rd best offense in the league? Is it possible that they're in the playoffs because they have a top 3 defense?

    The easy rebuttal to this should be, "Well they'd have the WORST offense in the league without him!!!!"

    ....except their offensive rating is literally exactly the same without him on the court.

    And since you agree that he previously put up empty stats, what's different about his numbers this season? To me the only difference is he's doing it with a fantastic defense behind him...that's literally it. That's the only difference. He hasn't raised his efficiency (and is actually lower than it's been in previous seasons on similar volume), he's raised his assists slightly on a per possession basis (also a result of playing pseudo point guard), but that's not enough to warrant anything close to All NBA lmao.


    Explain to me why his offense is better this season despite the lowered efficiency on the same volume (when adjusted for pace) that he had in New Orleans, and why you're crediting it for the Knicks win pace.
    Did you think offense and defense are linked? Do you think over the course of a game the Knicks are capable of getting decent shots, maintaining floor balance, and controlling tempo without Randle? Randle impacts what the Knicks can do on both sides of the ball way more then anyone else on the team. You found one on/off stat and the conclusion you are drawing from it is filled with noise but you will just continue to demand that someone do the impossible and disprove the actual stat bc itís what you do. How long have you been alive? Idk but you should know better by now


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    Last edited by ewing; 05-15-2021 at 12:41 PM.
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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    Did you think offense and defense are linked? Do you think over the course of a game the Knicks are capable of getting decent shots, maintaining floor balance, and controlling tempo without Randle? You found one stat and the conclusion you are drawing from it is filled with noise but you will just continue to demand that someone do the impossible and disprove the actual stat bc itís what you do. How long have you been alive? Idk but you should know better by now


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    Of course they're linked. How does that disprove my claim? I didn't ask anyone to "disprove my stat", literally all I asked for was any kind of causal link between Randle's offense and the Knicks team success, which literally no one has provided yet.

    People fall victim to the same fallacies again and again, where you'll look at a team's record and think, "hmmm okay why are they a winning games", then they'll see who leads the team in per game averages and by default conclude that the player at the top is why they're a good team.

    And his raw On/Off correlation isn't the only thing that ties to my claim. Bball Index's O-LEBRON, ESPN's RPM, RAPM, and even Bball-reference's heavily box score leaning OBPM all imply the exact same thing - that he's a positive on offense but not anywhere near All NBA level.

    https://www.bball-index.com/2020-21-lebron-data/

    http://nbashotcharts.com/rapm?id=39286267

    http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/r...ge/2/sort/ORPM

    https://www.basketball-reference.com...ed_stats::obpm

    If you watch only handful of Knicks games it's super obvious that his impact is limited on film. He kills a ton of possessions with ill fated Isos, or sets where he'll hold the ball for 10 seconds on the shot clock and then pass it to a teammate at the last moment bricking the possession.

    And like, this sort of anecdotal observation can be backed up with data. Randle is 5th in the league in Iso possessions a whopping 5.4 per game, yet he only garners 0.91 points per possession in these situations, which is around 59th percentile. Someone harsher than me would see this is offense killing, but I honestly think these possessions do have some value, although in the grand scheme of things not very much.

    https://www.nba.com/stats/players/is...ort=POSS&dir=1

    I'd argue that his perimeter shooting success is also largely scheme related, as an average of 4.8 out of his 5.4 3PA per game are classified as either open or wide open per NBA.com's player tracking data

    https://www.nba.com/stats/players/sh...eet%20-%20Open

    He's also assisted on roughly 80% of his three point makes, again furthering the idea that he's not really a dynamic or versatile shooting threat, but that he's getting more open shot opportunities off of on ball creation from teammates that net him easy looks.


    Everything that makes sense to look at implies a similar idea, and tape study does as well - Randle isn't some all nba level offensive presence, and gets his volume in unhealthy or unproductive ways that bring minimal return for the overall team offense

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by VCaintdead17 View Post
    Of course they're linked. How does that disprove my claim? I didn't ask anyone to "disprove my stat", literally all I asked for was any kind of causal link between Randle's offense and the Knicks team success, which literally no one has provided yet.

    People fall victim to the same fallacies again and again, where you'll look at a team's record and think, "hmmm okay why are they a winning games", then they'll see who leads the team in per game averages and by default conclude that the player at the top is why they're a good team.

    And his raw On/Off correlation isn't the only thing that ties to my claim. Bball Index's O-LEBRON, ESPN's RPM, RAPM, and even Bball-reference's heavily box score leaning OBPM all imply the exact same thing - that he's a positive on offense but not anywhere near All NBA level.

    https://www.bball-index.com/2020-21-lebron-data/

    http://nbashotcharts.com/rapm?id=39286267

    http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/r...ge/2/sort/ORPM

    https://www.basketball-reference.com...ed_stats::obpm

    If you watch only handful of Knicks games it's super obvious that his impact is limited on film. He kills a ton of possessions with ill fated Isos, or sets where he'll hold the ball for 10 seconds on the shot clock and then pass it to a teammate at the last moment bricking the possession.

    And like, this sort of anecdotal observation can be backed up with data. Randle is 5th in the league in Iso possessions a whopping 5.4 per game, yet he only garners 0.91 points per possession in these situations, which is around 59th percentile. Someone harsher than me would see this is offense killing, but I honestly think these possessions do have some value, although in the grand scheme of things not very much.

    https://www.nba.com/stats/players/is...ort=POSS&dir=1

    I'd argue that his perimeter shooting success is also largely scheme related, as an average of 4.8 out of his 5.4 3PA per game are classified as either open or wide open per NBA.com's player tracking data

    https://www.nba.com/stats/players/sh...eet%20-%20Open

    He's also assisted on roughly 80% of his three point makes, again furthering the idea that he's not really a dynamic or versatile shooting threat, but that he's getting more open shot opportunities off of on ball creation from teammates that net him easy looks.


    Everything that makes sense to look at implies a similar idea, and tape study does as well - Randle isn't some all nba level offensive presence, and gets his volume in unhealthy or unproductive ways that bring minimal return for the overall team offense
    What a clown post


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  15. #30
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    The Knicks won today in OT. Randle played 46 mins. In the 2 quarter the team got the pace up with him on the bench and extended the lead to 16. Quickley scored 11 in a couple mins and the offense looked explosive. In the second half Randle played the 3rd and took his regular rest to start the 4th. Things were not going well and Charlotte was on a run. Thibs got Randle up at about the 9 mins mark after only 3 mins of rest. I love our supporting guys but this team is very dependent on Randle




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    Last edited by ewing; 05-15-2021 at 04:17 PM.
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