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  1. #211
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    Nate Thompson is returning to the Flyers? I didn't think he was very good his first time around with the team. 1-year, $800k

  2. #212
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    I. Despise. Nate. Thompson.

  3. #213
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    I think Nate was signed for $700k (league minimum) but I may be wrong. He actually had positive defensive metrics last season. I think a big part of this is improving the PK and 4th line/13th fwd depth. I didn't like him much and he didn't belong in the lineup, but he was decent on the PK...He'll play 5 minutes a game if he's in the lineup.

  4. #214
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    900k for Elliot to Tampa...annoys me...but I'm sure he chose to go there for that price to try to win a cup in his last season.

  5. #215
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    I'm really trying to see the improvement in this club for next year....

    Jones - I think is a downgrade from Elliot.....
    Thompson - didn't like him as a player before don't like him as a player now...
    Yandle - on the fence about him....been reading more negative press about his play then positive so far.
    Ristolainen - that move still bothers me.


    Ellis and Atkinson - I understand why these moves were made....Ellis gives us a legit #1 D man when healthy....Atkinson - it was time for Voracek to move on from here....we saved money even though longer term by a year....

    Can't wait to see what else Fletcher is gonna disappoint his fans with

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by SportsNutMike View Post
    I'm really trying to see the improvement in this club for next year....

    Jones - I think is a downgrade from Elliot.....
    Thompson - didn't like him as a player before don't like him as a player now...
    Yandle - on the fence about him....been reading more negative press about his play then positive so far.
    Ristolainen - that move still bothers me.


    Ellis and Atkinson - I understand why these moves were made....Ellis gives us a legit #1 D man when healthy....Atkinson - it was time for Voracek to move on from here....we saved money even though longer term by a year....

    Can't wait to see what else Fletcher is gonna disappoint his fans with
    First of all, while I don't agree for the prices paid for some of these moves, we are OBVIOUSLY better and have better depth all around. Ellis is better than Myers and Patrick. That was a nice move in the short term, we just have to hope for the long term. After finding out it was a knuckle injury and not a shoulder, that's encouraging. Atkinson adds a much needed shooter, PK, PP...all situations guy to the lineup...probably on the second line. He is not necessarily better than Jake, but where Jake was another playmaker, we have a guy in Cam that fills a role which was a need...a shooter and a PK specialist. Both teams conceivably won that trade.

    Risto was a gross overpay IMO, but still pushed Braun down to probable 3rd pairing minutes, made us tougher and bigger on D, and added upside that is possible we can tap into. Was it a good trade? Not really for the assets...did it make us better? Yes. Yandle was a nice addition again because we paid peanuts for him and he had okay numbers last year. Is he past his prime? Yes, but he also is a solid 5-7 guy which is what we paid for him and signed him for. Excellent example of low risk high reward. Thompson is a depth signing and PK specialist. We shouldn't be in a position where our PK is in the bottom 3rd anymore. If so, coaching has no excuse and it's on them. Good Depth signing. Clendening is a nice depth 28 y/o AHL Dman for, again, peanuts which is what we should pay for someone like him.

    We didn't end up with an AMac contract for a #8 dman (although it could happen with Risto). Our team is immediately better all around IMO. Patrick won't be forced in the lineup. Ghost has been freed. Myers will probably develop into a solid #3 dman....but we are better with Cam than we were with Jake because he fills multiple needs and multiple roles. Ellis is a bonafide top pairing Dman to pair with Provy which we have yet to see. Risto is a 4-6 guy right now, but adds an element of toughness in front of heart and a heavy RH shot. Yandle is solid when he's on his game and we paid under 1M for him for one year. Thompson is a specialist and nothing more. Jones is an upgrade from Elliot when he's on top of his game. Elliot was just as bad as Jones last year.

    I don't think you can say our team in the short term doesn't look better. The verdict is out on the long term. What do Myers, Patrick, Ghost, and those picks become? How does Ellis hold up? Is Risto resigned and does he come around to his potential (he has tons of it)? These will decide the trade results in years to come. This year we're better though.

  7. #217
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    I'm not sure we are "obviously" better, however, overall. I think there's a chance we're better, but there's a lot of risk the Flyers took on, and there's a good chance they misplay their new additions. As of today, I'm not sure this is a more talented group of Flyers than we last saw, and I've got reservations.

    Ellis, in theory is a nice addition. But we can't just completely ignore last year's down year. It happened, it's real, and it's there. It's not a trend...yet. But it can quickly become a trend with a second down year. As he enters his 30's, with less frame, it wouldn't be shocking to watch the guy slow down and be less #1 defensemen and more #1/2 defensemen and then begin going down from there. That's not a bad player even at that, but I think we need to understand the risk there. I think the trade was a fine usage of assets but the outcome of "Ellis is declining" is still a realistic one...even if it's not desired.

    Atkinson is an even bigger risk in that aspect. While Ellis had a down season and it's not a trend...Atikinson can't say the same. Over his last few years he's seen declines across the board on counting statistics and rate/advanced statistics. Columbus isn't a great place to play, and he lost his linemate Panerin that he thrived with, but he's also 32. Again, another smaller guy declining into his mid-30s is not shocking. He will help out across some placed Voracek didn't, but he also might continue to decline. It's not just a blip at this point, it is a trend, it's not ignorable. Again, this isn't to say I don't understand the impotence for the trade...but we can't just ignore data because it's not great on paper. Data suggests the last few years he's dipped.

    Ristolainen...has been nothing short of horrible. And while I know blaming it on Buffalo is a possibility, again, the Sabres were better when he was off the ice, than when he was on it, with the same players. That's not a ringing endorsement. The Flyers paid a price that says "we believe this guy is good". He's played like a bottom 20 defensemen in the league recently, and if you're giving what is a 3rd pairing defensemen on the ice 20+ minutes a game you're going to be really hurting your team. I know he's put up some point totals, but being wary of counting stats when players compile like Ristolainen has, is important to note. He did most of his point damage as QB1 on the PP, which he probably won't see much time as. His 5v5 production came mostly because he was just on the ice enough, not because he was efficient with that time.

    I don't want to sound doom and gloom. There's very real worlds where the Flyers are upgraded. They come in, they fit in the system, they fit into the team and they get back on track. All of them. Ristolainen in a more sheltered role, learns to play within himself. This isn't fantasy land. But the Flyers have not shown to be the organization recently to rehab players abilities on ice, either. Last year, most of their young players took steps back, especially defensively. Vingualt isn't someone you expect to have patience. There's a world, just like the good one, this blows up in their face. Most of the players they picked up are coming off down seasons in some way shape or form, and are past their 30's. The exception is Risolainen, but he's been in the league the better part of decade himself. Again...I'm not trying to be doom and gloom; it's an unlikely scenario where the Flyers find themselves in a situation where everyone underperforms. It's also unlikely these all go the way we want them. These are more extreme outcomes and the middle ground is something more like "some of this works out and some doesn't". How bad some of this bombs and how big of a win some of this is will determine that. What I am saying though is; I don't necessarily trust this to be a better roster simply because it's a different roster. There's moves I liked, moves I really hate...but almost every one of these moves has a decent level of risk. And because of that risk, I just can't in any way state that I'm convinced it's a better roster. I hope it is. I want it to be. But there's just too much variance for me with any sort of confidence say if it is or it isn't.
    Last edited by 1908_Cubs; 07-28-2021 at 03:48 PM.

  8. #218
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    I agree short term we may have improved on D....depending on Ellis' health and Risto....Yandle I'm not too worred about he is who he is at this point of his career. He's a proven leader who can show the younger Dmen how to play...

    Risto is a gamble....if he plays the season before he's resigned....plays well he's gonna cost alot to keep...
    sign him early and he sucks rocks it'll Andrew MacDonald all over again....if he's not signed and plays terrible or great and leaves....that's one expensive rental player.

    The young guys have to take another step in development to make this a stronger team....I am excited to see this team on the ice next season....I want a better team out there. I'm hoping someone on this team will be that "other" shooter besides Atkinson....

    There is some excitement for the season coming up....the coaches have new blood in the lineup....it's totally up to them to get this team prepared. They can't allow players to take games "off" like I think some did last season.
    Last edited by SportsNutMike; 07-28-2021 at 03:58 PM.

  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by txravis12 View Post
    I. Despise. Nate. Thompson.
    If he's the 13th/14th fwd it's fine. If he's a regular in the lineup? Well, RIP.

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1908_Cubs View Post
    Martin Jones, 1 year, $2m. There's your backup.
    I don't like this at all. If that's the best they could do for a backup goalie, then I am not impressed.

  11. #221
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    I mean, Iím just out. We are just signing old, dust, vets to try to make the playoffs, and donít remotely have the skill to advance against the top 8 - 10 teams in any series. Greatttt

  12. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by castan_b View Post
    I mean, Iím just out. We are just signing old, dust, vets to try to make the playoffs, and donít remotely have the skill to advance against the top 8 - 10 teams in any series. Greatttt
    ...These are depth signings at this point and if you expected anything else you were being foolish (as was I with the hope for a JVR trade evidently)...we have just enough cap to sign both Sanheim and Hart, and once the roster is set should have around 1.5M in space remaining.

  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1908_Cubs View Post
    I'm not sure we are "obviously" better, however, overall. I think there's a chance we're better, but there's a lot of risk the Flyers took on, and there's a good chance they misplay their new additions. As of today, I'm not sure this is a more talented group of Flyers than we last saw, and I've got reservations.

    Ellis, in theory is a nice addition. But we can't just completely ignore last year's down year. It happened, it's real, and it's there. It's not a trend...yet. But it can quickly become a trend with a second down year. As he enters his 30's, with less frame, it wouldn't be shocking to watch the guy slow down and be less #1 defensemen and more #1/2 defensemen and then begin going down from there. That's not a bad player even at that, but I think we need to understand the risk there. I think the trade was a fine usage of assets but the outcome of "Ellis is declining" is still a realistic one...even if it's not desired.

    Atkinson is an even bigger risk in that aspect. While Ellis had a down season and it's not a trend...Atikinson can't say the same. Over his last few years he's seen declines across the board on counting statistics and rate/advanced statistics. Columbus isn't a great place to play, and he lost his linemate Panerin that he thrived with, but he's also 32. Again, another smaller guy declining into his mid-30s is not shocking. He will help out across some placed Voracek didn't, but he also might continue to decline. It's not just a blip at this point, it is a trend, it's not ignorable. Again, this isn't to say I don't understand the impotence for the trade...but we can't just ignore data because it's not great on paper. Data suggests the last few years he's dipped.

    Ristolainen...has been nothing short of horrible. And while I know blaming it on Buffalo is a possibility, again, the Sabres were better when he was off the ice, than when he was on it, with the same players. That's not a ringing endorsement. The Flyers paid a price that says "we believe this guy is good". He's played like a bottom 20 defensemen in the league recently, and if you're giving what is a 3rd pairing defensemen on the ice 20+ minutes a game you're going to be really hurting your team. I know he's put up some point totals, but being wary of counting stats when players compile like Ristolainen has, is important to note. He did most of his point damage as QB1 on the PP, which he probably won't see much time as. His 5v5 production came mostly because he was just on the ice enough, not because he was efficient with that time.

    I don't want to sound doom and gloom. There's very real worlds where the Flyers are upgraded. They come in, they fit in the system, they fit into the team and they get back on track. All of them. Ristolainen in a more sheltered role, learns to play within himself. This isn't fantasy land. But the Flyers have not shown to be the organization recently to rehab players abilities on ice, either. Last year, most of their young players took steps back, especially defensively. Vingualt isn't someone you expect to have patience. There's a world, just like the good one, this blows up in their face. Most of the players they picked up are coming off down seasons in some way shape or form, and are past their 30's. The exception is Risolainen, but he's been in the league the better part of decade himself. Again...I'm not trying to be doom and gloom; it's an unlikely scenario where the Flyers find themselves in a situation where everyone underperforms. It's also unlikely these all go the way we want them. These are more extreme outcomes and the middle ground is something more like "some of this works out and some doesn't". How bad some of this bombs and how big of a win some of this is will determine that. What I am saying though is; I don't necessarily trust this to be a better roster simply because it's a different roster. There's moves I liked, moves I really hate...but almost every one of these moves has a decent level of risk. And because of that risk, I just can't in any way state that I'm convinced it's a better roster. I hope it is. I want it to be. But there's just too much variance for me with any sort of confidence say if it is or it isn't.
    With Ellis I see what you're saying but overall it was a bad year for the Preds for the most part. Toward the end of the season, if I'm not mistaken, he was starting to pick it up quite a bit, but you're right there's a decent chance he starts regressing. That said, he's better than any defenseman we had on the roster last year. My point was he was an obvious improvement for our team.

    Atkinson I think you need to look a little closer at his stats (even with a terrible team that was falling apart all over the place). His CF% was positive every season except last year. The last full year of hockey was actually his best season overall...the last two seasons are tough to grade because of the shortened seasons and the Jackets overall were a bad team. His Fenwick and PDO numbers were actually decent and I believe the best or second best on the team in almost every category. His last full season was his best Pts/60 season at 2.6 and the last 2 years he was a 2.0 in the shortened and crappy team year. Overall, the decline over the last two seasons were minimal even though the team around him was arguably the worst he has had to play with during that time (and COVID seasons where apparently anyone not on the Lightning or on McDavid's lines had worse offensive numbers). If you look at Jake, he was eating more cap and regressing at a greater rate across the board (again we were pretty bad last year as well).

    I agree on Risto, but I feel as though he only can go up from where he was. You also have to wonder how much his heart was in his game in Buffalo...knowing you are going to lose all the time...lol...but I agree for the most part here.

    The ones we have to hope work out the most are (IMO) Risto, Ellis, then Atkinson...My reasoning is that you gave up a lot for Risto and we are likely going to lock him up for a longer term deal. It needs to be worth it. Ellis is definitely around for the next few years and we need him to perform to excel. Atkinson is hopefully going to excel, but he's, at worst, going to be a serviceable player for the next couple seasons. I still see him as Danny Briere lite. lol

  14. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLMunchie619 View Post
    With Ellis I see what you're saying but overall it was a bad year for the Preds for the most part. Toward the end of the season, if I'm not mistaken, he was starting to pick it up quite a bit, but you're right there's a decent chance he starts regressing. That said, he's better than any defenseman we had on the roster last year. My point was he was an obvious improvement for our team.

    Atkinson I think you need to look a little closer at his stats (even with a terrible team that was falling apart all over the place). His CF% was positive every season except last year. The last full year of hockey was actually his best season overall...the last two seasons are tough to grade because of the shortened seasons and the Jackets overall were a bad team. His Fenwick and PDO numbers were actually decent and I believe the best or second best on the team in almost every category. His last full season was his best Pts/60 season at 2.6 and the last 2 years he was a 2.0 in the shortened and crappy team year. Overall, the decline over the last two seasons were minimal even though the team around him was arguably the worst he has had to play with during that time (and COVID seasons where apparently anyone not on the Lightning or on McDavid's lines had worse offensive numbers). If you look at Jake, he was eating more cap and regressing at a greater rate across the board (again we were pretty bad last year as well).

    I agree on Risto, but I feel as though he only can go up from where he was. You also have to wonder how much his heart was in his game in Buffalo...knowing you are going to lose all the time...lol...but I agree for the most part here.

    The ones we have to hope work out the most are (IMO) Risto, Ellis, then Atkinson...My reasoning is that you gave up a lot for Risto and we are likely going to lock him up for a longer term deal. It needs to be worth it. Ellis is definitely around for the next few years and we need him to perform to excel. Atkinson is hopefully going to excel, but he's, at worst, going to be a serviceable player for the next couple seasons. I still see him as Danny Briere lite. lol
    In regards to Atkinson it isn't that the numbers were bad...it's the trend. Each yeah, two years running, have been worse than the year prior. And yeah, those are the rate stats. I think it's not fair to stay "minimal". They're tangible drops in stuff like his cf%. We can't just ignore these things. Atikinson has shown falling numbers two years running, is 32. What Voracek's cap hit is or isn't doesn't mean anything for the on ice performance of Atikinson, because the post wasn't "is the Flyers cap hit better" it's "is the roster better"? While I think there are areas Atkinson improves over Voracek, the idea is that there's no definitive answer for how much better, or if Atkinson is any better than Voracek was last year considering his age, and his declining rate and peripheral statistics. Atkinson may be better, but realistically, the improvement may not be very tangible, either. It's the risk factor. It may not continue. He may stabilize. Maybe Columbus was bad for him. But...maybe he's 32, and doing what 32 year olds do; decline.

    With Ristolainen, if the only argument we have is "well it can't get any worse...right?", I think you have the answer you need there. And the reality is; it can always get worse. I also highly disagree that it "needs to be worth it". We're getting into sunk cost fallacy here. Spending more money to double down on the initial mistake with Ristolainen is bad. The picks are already gone. Keeping a ****** player around for 5 more years doesn't make it any more palatable. Think of it this way: you buy a house, pay for it, and after an inspection, you are told it has a crack in the foundation. The house is ****ed. That house is going to be ruined either way. You have already paid. Renovating the kitchen doesn't fix that. Signing Ristolainen is the same way. The picks are gone. Signing him doesn't make the trade any better...frankly it makes it worse.

    The issue with the roster next year is that almost every player acquired had a bad 2020, or has been on some decline. Ristolainen? Awful. Ellis? Arguably his most disappointing year. Atkinson? Declining peripherals. Jones? Awful. Yandle? Required sheltering. I do think there's bounceback potential, but acquiring an entire slew of bounceback potentials on this roster, with this coaching staff, and their inability recently to get the best of players...not sure it's a great plan. Not all will downslide. But not everyone's bouncing back. How much bounceback they get versus how much players continue their most recent play will be a big factor on the team either being improved, or just not. We may even be in a case where the roster additions on the whole is worse (if things go SUPER badly) but players like Hart, Sanheim, Lindblom, and Frost naturally progress and the results are better despite it. I really don't want to be doom and gloom here; I think there's been some generally positive moves. Not everything has been bad (Ellis was a solid B/B+ move, Atkinson a C+/B- type, both are probably fine risks). But there are risks involved, even in the good. It's a gamble of a roster. I think one that right now has far more questions than answers, enough for me to say "I can't say this is a better team. Only a different one".

    In the end, this feels like a typical Chuck Fletcher roster that he's put out a lot of his career; it's a team I don't think is a dumpster fire. I think it could make the playoffs, and I think it could win a playoff series. But as of today it doesn't have the feel of a team who's going to make it any further than the 2nd round, without like a 95%+ outcome, either. And because that's the case...I'll hope this is the roster that gets Chuck fired ultimately, even if they scoot into the playoffs. I just don't think he's creative enough of a roster builder, enough of a big picture thinker, or as well versed in what the future of hockey roster building is to be the guy I want running this team. The Flyers just feel very...stagnated. Not in roster turnover (there's been a decent amount of change) but in the thinking of the organization right now. Feels like they're destined to be a team who's somewhere between the 10th best team in the league to the 10th worst.
    Last edited by 1908_Cubs; 07-29-2021 at 09:43 AM.

  15. #225
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    Are the Flyers' an ownerless franchise? What I mean is a company (Comcast Spectacor) runs them....Who makes the final decisions for this team? Snider used to make certain decisions (big FA signings, personnel, etc...)...who does it now? Is Fletcher just doing what he wants with consequence?

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