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  1. #121
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    Oct 2008
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    4,262
    I am not a Fletcher fan at all. He's in win-now mode, but we are stuck with our forwards. Nobody wants Voracek or JVR. G and Hayes aren't getting any younger. Just flashbacks of being stuck in mediocrity forever and battling for the last playoff spot with this roster.

  2. #122
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    Mar 2009
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    Alexandria, VA
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    4,711
    He's not really in win now mode. He's in make the playoffs to remain employed mode.
    <Meaning and Content>

    ...And did you see that Giroux goal?

  3. #123
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    California
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    9,972
    Quote Originally Posted by crzyhawk View Post
    He's not really in win now mode. He's in make the playoffs to remain employed mode.
    lol this^. what a massive overpayment for garbage

    Flyers lose:

    myers
    patrick
    hagg
    ghost
    1st round
    2nd round
    2nd round
    7th round

    flyers gain:
    risto
    ellis

  4. #124
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    1,871
    Changed our D big time from last year.

    Provy Ellis
    Sanheim Ristolainen
    York/Zamula/Braun/Morin

    Hart better play better this year.

  5. #125
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
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    California
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    9,972
    Quote Originally Posted by 1908_Cubs View Post
    The Flyers have acquired Rasmus Ristolainen for Hagg and 2 picks.

    Waiting on word from the 2 picks. If it's for their 1st I'm going to hate this. He's not faired well in Buffalo so far, and while I understand Buffalo has been a difficult team to play for, he's not delivered on heavy minutes. Rumor is that it's for the 1st, however. Meaning the Flyers will have dealt 1st and 2nd round picks to clear Ghost and acquire Ristolainen, who's put up really poor metrics across the board.

    UPDATE: the picks appear to be a 1st in 2021, and a 2nd in 2023. Yep. I ****ing hate this trade. Even if he's going to be better with 2nd pairing time...you traded a very high pick...for a player you're hoping with limited minutes will be better. That's not a good asset usage. Ugh. He's also only signed to a single year. So it's not like they got some long term piece. I have no faith in a long term deal with a player who's not shown the ability to play great metrically, either, so even if they sign him to an extension now, you're paying for hopes and dreams. So it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. You're doubling down on the payment acquisition cost; which might be an Andrew MacDonald situation (give a guy a contract on what you think he'll be, only to find out, whoopsies, he isn't). It doesn't make the asset management any better.
    ****ing awful. We essentially over paid for a #4 option behind prov, ellis, and sanheim. Why not go and sign Martinez or savard and keep the assets? **** fletcher

  6. #126
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    1,088
    Honestly, I don't care. We've done it Holmgren's way and spent for win now mode with no luck. We did it Hextall's way with staying young and build with no luck. At this point, I really don't care. If I've learned anything watching Philly sports, specifically hockey, basketball and baseball, I'm not losing sleep over draft picks anymore, so whatever.
    Phillies/Eagles/Flyers/Sixers/Union/Arsenal

  7. #127
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    Feb 2009
    Posts
    4,321
    Oddly enough...I kind of like the trade. I think having an NHL ready defenseman that has a ton of upside is really going to help. He's only 26 and has that Chara kind of feel to him...I'm hoping that like Chara, he just blossoms late. The only thing is, I do not like that he is only signed for this year...maybe we can catch lightning in a bottle and sign him to a longer deal and him blow it up this year. High risk, high reward. The other thing I look at is that a 1st may not have as much value this year because there wasn't a whole lot of development and scouting that was able to be done with COVID over the last couple seasons....I dont know, I'm trying to make some of the light side points....We got a power tower, 26 y/o, RHD for Hagg and picks (which we haven't been nailing often anyways...)

  8. #128
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    Jul 2008
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    8,506
    Provorov Ellis
    Sanheim Risto
    York Braun

    That defense is much better, anyway you slice it. However, the cost of a 1st is tough to swallow.

  9. #129
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    58,746
    Dom Luszczyszyn of The Athletic gives the Flyers an "F-" for this trade.

    Over the last three seasons, Eichel has spent nearly 1,000 minutes with Ristolainen and in that time has a 46 percent goal rate. Itís 55 percent without him. By expected goals RAPM (a regressed version of expected goals that takes into account teammates and competition) Ristolainenís effect is the 22nd worst among all defenders and the third-worst by goals. On a consistently bad Sabres team, Ristolainen has always been the anchor dragging everyone down.

    Heís a liability at both ends of the ice prone to awful decision-making and has been incredibly miscast in a tough minutes role. It is true that Ristolainen has played very tough minutes, but his results within those minutes have been so consistently bad every year (while often playing with a strong top line anchored by Eichel) that itís difficult to imagine thereíll be a substantial improvement in a lesser role.

    Ristolainen isnít the worst defender in the world by any stretch and has a frame that GMs covet, but how heís used that frame during the entirety of his career has not been useful. Ristolainen has not been bad because of Buffalo Ė Buffalo has been bad because Ristolainen has been their most used defenceman. Moving on from him alone is great news for the Sabres.

    ...

    Philadelphia paid that very steep price and the Flyers better hope they can rehabilitate his game. Itís not out of the realm of possibility Ė Ristolainen did have one strong stretch with Jake McCabe (and a top line with Eichel and Taylor Hall) to start the season, but given his history that likely says more about McCabe. That he needed high teammate quality to get positive results is not something that should take a first and second to acquire. The mismatch in projected value between both sides is large with the Flyers trading away draft capital worth 7.3 wins over the next seven seasons. Ristolainen is extremely unlikely to reach that, with his current projection at minus-0.1 wins and his seven-year trajectory at minus-1.5 wins. This is one of the worst trades in a long time.
    Sam Gentile gives it a "J"

    Honestly, the best way I can sum up the deal: When I saw it first reported, I thought it was fake.

    ...

    This, though, in terms of opportunity cost, is baffling. They couldíve found someone similar later in August. They couldíve kept Shayne Gostisbehere (and not sent a second-rounder to Arizona as a trade sweetener). They couldíve done a lot of things. What they went with ó paying to make Gostibehere disappear as a way of freeing up space to lose their shirt for Ristolainen ó does not seem like itíll end well. The absolutely best-case scenario for the Flyers is that they just dropped first- and second-rounders on a serviceable third-pair guy with a $5.4 million salary.
    These were the only 2 grades given by TheAthletic.com. If you have a subscription you can check out the full article (I pulled the parts pertaining to Risolainen and the Flyers, there's more about the Sabres side of the deal there). Link to full article here
    Last edited by 1908_Cubs; 07-23-2021 at 06:31 PM.

  10. #130
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    Feb 2010
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    8,591
    This trade is honestly laughably bad. We essentially got a slightly better right handed version of Hagg, that costs 3.5x more than Hagg, and paid a 1st and a 2nd to do it. This is a gross misappropriation of assets. This trade is so bad that it's likely the deal that gets Fletcher fired in the end.

  11. #131
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    Aug 2006
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    58,746
    Quote Originally Posted by CasperX22 View Post
    This trade is honestly laughably bad. We essentially got a slightly better right handed version of Hagg, that costs 3.5x more than Hagg, and paid a 1st and a 2nd to do it. This is a gross misappropriation of assets. This trade is so bad that it's likely the deal that gets Fletcher fired in the end.
    Yep. And not only gets Fletcher fired but then likely sets up the next guy in a pretty damn disadvantaged position, trading away a top-15 pick and then back to back second round picks, as well. Those picks or players taken in those slots could be assets used to supplement the roster either in a few years or via trade in a more efficient way.

    Sent from my SM-G981V using Tapatalk
    Last edited by 1908_Cubs; 07-23-2021 at 07:15 PM.

  12. #132
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    Dec 2008
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    Philadelphia
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    118,435
    this is one of the worst trades we have made in a long long time lol... like we got fleeced.

  13. #133
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    Feb 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1908_Cubs View Post
    Yep. And not only gets Fletcher fired but then likely sets up the next guy in a pretty damn disadvantaged position, trading away a top-15 pick and then back to back second round picks, as well. Those picks or players taken in those slots could be assets used to supplement the roster either in a few years or via trade in a more efficient way.

    Sent from my SM-G981V using Tapatalk
    I tried to look on the bright side...but this trade pisses me off. I'm hoping that Risto can pull a Chara and get better with age. Even if he does, we still overpaid, because this should NOT have been the cost to acquire Risto at this point and time. We should have been able to get him with a 3rd this year and a 2023 2nd at worst...at worst...and even that still feels a little lopsided for how bad Risto has been....

  14. #134
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    Aug 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLMunchie619 View Post
    I tried to look on the bright side...but this trade pisses me off. I'm hoping that Risto can pull a Chara and get better with age. Even if he does, we still overpaid, because this should NOT have been the cost to acquire Risto at this point and time. We should have been able to get him with a 3rd this year and a 2023 2nd at worst...at worst...and even that still feels a little lopsided for how bad Risto has been....
    I can't find any positive on this deal. I don't think he's in any category with the name Chara. Chara's a very rare example of a change, and I have a feeling that Chara was actually much better than he was getting credit for. He pre-dates the advanced stuff. I think he's a case of "this guy was actually good and people didn't know what to look for correctly". Like I think if we had advanced stuff on him...I have a feeling there'd have been underlying things that pointed to him being good. Risto has basically, nothing of the sort.

    Ristolainen has been a really bad defender. For a bit. He's made persistent mental lapses in both zones, he's hurt the Sabres defensively for years. The Flyers paid a very steep price (the kind of price you pay for someone you want to play a lot), you're hoping to hide more, which logistically, makes zero sense. So you're paying for an untested theory of "if you take him out of Buffalo and put him on a 2nd line he'll be better". He's not signed to some sweetheart deal where you'd find surplus value there. You can't double down on the mistake and resign him prior to the untested theory.

    All the while the Flyers defensive unit crumbled last season, and they showed an inability to get the best of their young defensemen. And now they're going to be the team who thinks they can fix Ristolainen? I don't get it. This reeks of a hail mary from a guy who's close to being canned, who didn't give a **** about the team's future.

    They could have gotten a similar player for less later. They could have used the draft pick to get someone else. I'm not mad they traded the picks, I'm mad how they spent it. You can make an argument their defense has improved, but it's like upgrading from a '97 Saturn to a '15 Camry. It's an upgrade, sure. But you wouldn't pay $240,000 for that upgrade, and it feels like that's what they did here. They got better but for a stupidly high price that will likely be felt in a handful of years when the loan catches up with you and the car you bought has nowhere near the resale value.

    Even on the off chance they fix him, they overpaid. Which is why I can't find a positive. Either they overpaid for a very risky fix in which advanced data has no underlying successes to highlight or they overpaid for a bad defenseman.
    Last edited by 1908_Cubs; 07-23-2021 at 08:28 PM.

  15. #135
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    Feb 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1908_Cubs View Post
    I can't find any positive on this deal. I don't think he's in any category with the name Chara. Chara's a very rare example of a change, and I have a feeling that Chara was actually much better than he was getting credit for. He pre-dates the advanced stuff. I think he's a case of "this guy was actually good and people didn't know what to look for correctly". Like I think if we had advanced stuff on him...I have a feeling there'd have been underlying things that pointed to him being good. Risto has basically, nothing of the sort.

    Ristolainen has been a really bad defender. For a bit. He's made persistent mental lapses in both zones, he's hurt the Sabres defensively for years. The Flyers paid a very steep price (the kind of price you pay for someone you want to play a lot), you're hoping to hide more, which logistically, makes zero sense. So you're paying for an untested theory of "if you take him out of Buffalo and put him on a 2nd line he'll be better". He's not signed to some sweetheart deal where you'd find surplus value there. You can't double down on the mistake and resign him prior to the untested theory.

    All the while the Flyers defensive unit crumbled last season, and they showed an inability to get the best of their young defensemen. And now they're going to be the team who thinks they can fix Ristolainen? I don't get it. This reeks of a hail mary from a guy who's close to being canned, who didn't give a **** about the team's future.

    They could have gotten a similar player for less later. They could have used the draft pick to get someone else. I'm not mad they traded the picks, I'm mad how they spent it. You can make an argument their defense has improved, but it's like upgrading from a '97 Saturn to a '15 Camry. It's an upgrade, sure. But you wouldn't pay $240,000 for that upgrade, and it feels like that's what they did here. They got better but for a stupidly high price that will likely be felt in a handful of years when the loan catches up with you and the car you bought has nowhere near the resale value.

    Even on the off chance they fix him, they overpaid. Which is why I can't find a positive. Either they overpaid for a very risky fix in which advanced data has no underlying successes to highlight or they overpaid for a bad defenseman.
    I feel like this states exactly how I really feel...I want to feel good about it, but I just can't...I loved the Ellis deal...Felt a little meh about the Ghost move (would have been okay if we went for a homerun kind of signing or trade)...and I just HATE this move...I want to like it, but I feel like we traded for a younger and worse version of Braun...

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