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  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tg11 View Post
    Get the GM out and then see what this team can do
    So the current GM has been there 3 years....and the Packer winning percentage is basically the same as it was in the 10 years Erin started prior to this GM.

    What, exactly, is the data showing this GM is the problem?
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by QB_Eagles View Post
    You think Rodgers let the competition bother him? He won MVP!

    No, it's about the team being competitive. Nowadays you can't just keep every good player forever. You actually need to hit on players in the draft to be good.


    Well, you gotta include OL where they consistently drafted good players.

    But another problem is that for a decade or so the Packers built almost exclusively through the draft.
    Definitely not overlooking the OL. That’s probably the key to a good offense, but still need overall good talent on offense. He’s barely had that consistently.

    Your last point is the biggest reason. Drafting talent is the way to build a team but only using drafted players doesn’t really work either.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack of Blades View Post
    I don't consider Brand New indie. I consider them ****ing awesome and don't belong to a genre.

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullseyed View Post
    Yep. And he's had a top 5 WR/top 5 RB combo for a couple years now.

    The real issue is Rodgers isn't good enough to lift a WR3 the way Brady (see: Scott Miller) or Mahomes (see: Mecole Hardman / Demarcus Robinson) does. Even Josh Allen took a guy like Gabriel Davis (2020 4th round / 128 overall) and got 600 yards out of him.

    Rodgers couldn't do anything with Jimmy Graham when they got him a $12.6M pass catcher. Didn't do enough with Cobb at $12.5M before that.


    So people say he has been "missing" a WR2 for a bit. But he just doesn't use them when he has them.
    Lol.

    MVS was his number two who was a 5th round pick (later than Davis) who got 690 and 6 TDs.

    Beasley Diggs Brown are all tremendously better than MVS.

    2016 with Nelson, Adams, and Cobb they all had at least 600 yards with Adam’s and Nelson over 10 TDs a piece. That was arguably one of his best years. I’d say this core is better than the Buffalo core but there aren’t many years that Beasley Diggs Brown wouldn’t have been better than the Wr core Rodgers was throwing too.

    Acting like he doesn’t bring up his 2nd/3rd options without looking at who those options are is stupid.

    Cobb was really good in GB so not sure what you’re talking about with that one. Jimmy Graham, outside of TDs, has been the same type of player for like 6 seasons now. He’s had like maybe 2 good years since he left NO 6 seasons ago.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack of Blades View Post
    I don't consider Brand New indie. I consider them ****ing awesome and don't belong to a genre.

  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    So the current GM has been there 3 years....and the Packer winning percentage is basically the same as it was in the 10 years Erin started prior to this GM.

    What, exactly, is the data showing this GM is the problem?
    You're taking the wrong conclusion here. It basically appears that the Packers have a floor of like 10 wins with Rodgers, regardless of who the coach or GM is. The GM didn't draft Rodgers, Adams, or most of the OL and that's basically what won them most of their games.

  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by manbearchef View Post
    You're taking the wrong conclusion here. It basically appears that the Packers have a floor of like 10 wins with Rodgers, regardless of who the coach or GM is. The GM didn't draft Rodgers, Adams, or most of the OL and that's basically what won them most of their games.
    No, I don't think I am. He's supposedly wanting the GM gone despite the fact he didn't want any previous GM gone who didn't build the team any better than the current one. So why weren't prior GMs the problem but this one is?
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    So the current GM has been there 3 years....and the Packer winning percentage is basically the same as it was in the 10 years Erin started prior to this GM.

    What, exactly, is the data showing this GM is the problem?
    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    No, I don't think I am. He's supposedly wanting the GM gone despite the fact he didn't want any previous GM gone who didn't build the team any better than the current one. So why weren't prior GMs the problem but this one is?
    Because he must have had a better relationship with Thompson. He clearly sees the new GM's drafts and doesn't feel like he's doing a good job. Take a look at his first 3 rounds of each draft:

    2018
    1st - CB Jairre Alexander (great pick)
    2nd - CB Josh Jackson (trash)
    3rd - LB Oren Burks (abysmal, he's not even a starter and he's horrible when he plays)

    2019
    1st - EDGE Rashan Gary (bad; not a starter and was a low ceiling pick. Brian Burns, Wilkins, and Fant were all on the board)
    1st ‐ S Darnelle Savage (very good pick)
    2nd - C Eglton (seems okay)
    3rd - TE Sternberger (sucks and is 3rd on the depth chart behind Lewis' corpse)

    2020
    1st - QB Love (needs no words)
    2nd - RB Dillion (wasted pick; he's gonna stay 2nd on the depth chart as long as he's there)
    3rd - TE Deguara (trash, he's 4th on the depth chart)

    2021 is too early to tell, but they drafted another DB, C/G, and about the 10th best WR.

    The GM through his first 3 classes has outright wasted 4 picks, whiffed on 3 picks, and only hit on 3 picks. That sucks.

  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    The Packers have drafted the following offensive positions in the first 3 rounds since Aaron Rodgers was drafted:

    WR (6) - Greg Jennings (06 - 2), James Jones (07 - 3), Jordy Nelson (08 - 1), Randall Cobb (11 - 2), Devonte Adams (14 - 2), Ty Montgomery (15 - 3), Amari Rodgers (21 - 3)

    RB (4) - Brandon Jackson (07 -2), Alex Green (11 - 3), Eddie Lacy (13 - 2), AJ Dillon (20 - 2)

    OL - 8 in total

    TE (1) - Josiah Deguara (20 - 3)

    So out of a possible 48 picks, 19 have been offense. That means 29 picks in that span has been defensive picks and the defense is CONSTANTLY being bashed over how bad it is during ARods time. Either they should have looked in the mirror and say "hey lets do something different here" and take some offense or overhaul their scouting on all these defensive players that didn't pan out.
    But why does first 3 rounds equal talent? That's the crap part of this narrative all the time. The Packers drafted Josh Sutton, TJ Lang and David Bakhtiari in the 4th and Corey Linsley in the 5th. All of them signed a 2nd contract in GB and started for quite awhile. Currently, Aaron Jones is a very talented back and was taken in the 5th. The year they won the Super Bowl, 6th rounder James starks was more than enough in the playoffs.

    The Packers get hyper focused on the draft stuff, but I'd be willing to guess they aren't the only team that focused on one side of the ball. At the end of the day, if you look at their yearly salary cap expenditure of offense vs defense, they spend more on offense consistently. And it's because they've been better at drafting it, so they sign the better players to longer deals and try to hit on defense in the draft.

    And everyone likes to point to free agency. That's fine, but there's a salary cap and floor and the Packers aren't exactly low spenders as a whole. They just prefer to keep their own guys. Sometimes that's a big backfire, like Nick Perry, but that happens all the time with street free agents. It's like fans would rather see the Packers let guys like David Bakhtiari, Kenny Clark and whoever else walk in FA just so we can make a splash outside FA signing.

    Plus, one thing that's wholely unlucky, the Packers team that won the Super Bowl got crushed with unlucky, career ending injuries. Within a year of the Super Bowl win, 2 starting defensive players, both of whom were pretty important to the team and were under 30 suffered career ending injuries. Nick Collins was arguably our best defender in the Super Bowl. Woodson got the love, and rightfully so, but Collins talent as a centerfielder allowed him to roam wild. Desmond Bishop was 26 during the super bowl and was coming into his own as a good player.

    Then a year later Jermichael Finley suffers a career ending injury before he's 30. And soon after he signs his 2nd contract, Sam Shields, coming off a Pro Bowl year, is forced to retire due to concussions. I get injuries happen, but to have 3 guys from your Super Bowl starting lineup and 1 guy who would have started if healthy suffer what are basically career ending injuries in relatively short succession was rough. And honestly, S, CB, TE and ILB have been positions the Packers have been chasing ever since. Ted Thompson didmt adjust well enough, but we ended up having to draft for need more so than talent at times to cover for unexpected career ending injuries. We didn't draft TE, but it's one of the few spots we've spent on in FA with guys like Bennett and Graham both who didn't work out.

    Not trying to completely defend management, but there was some back luck in there that resulted in chasing needs, and when those guys didn't hit, it spirals.

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by manbearchef View Post
    Because he must have had a better relationship with Thompson. He clearly sees the new GM's drafts and doesn't feel like he's doing a good job. Take a look at his first 3 rounds of each draft:

    2018
    1st - CB Jairre Alexander (great pick)
    2nd - CB Josh Jackson (trash)
    3rd - LB Oren Burks (abysmal, he's not even a starter and he's horrible when he plays)

    2019
    1st - EDGE Rashan Gary (bad; not a starter and was a low ceiling pick. Brian Burns, Wilkins, and Fant were all on the board)
    1st ‐ S Darnelle Savage (very good pick)
    2nd - C Eglton (seems okay)
    3rd - TE Sternberger (sucks and is 3rd on the depth chart behind Lewis' corpse)

    2020
    1st - QB Love (needs no words)
    2nd - RB Dillion (wasted pick; he's gonna stay 2nd on the depth chart as long as he's there)
    3rd - TE Deguara (trash, he's 4th on the depth chart)

    2021 is too early to tell, but they drafted another DB, C/G, and about the 10th best WR.

    The GM through his first 3 classes has outright wasted 4 picks, whiffed on 3 picks, and only hit on 3 picks. That sucks.
    LOL, Gary is the starter and isn't trash. He also was one of the best athletes in the draft, so he's not low ceiling by any stretch of the imagination. Degura actually started the 1 of the 2 games he was healthy last year. Not saying he's a great pick, but hell play a bunch of snaps once he's healthy as a TE and H-back. The Packers don't give Jones major touches, so Dillon is probably in line for a pretty decent touch count. Jenkins literally got all pro votes last year in his 2nd season, so I think maybe that's a bit more than "seems okay."

    And turns out there's more to being GM than just drafting. Packers were under 0.500 in the final year before Gute and under 0.500 in Gute's first year. He proceeded to sign some impact FAs and in years 2 and 3 the team went 26-6 and made it to 2 straight NFC Champ games. Hard to say the roster is horrible and the GM has done an awful job.

  9. #144
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    Rodgers, with 1 more playoff win than Joe Flacco, believes he is the Michael Jordan of the NFL.

    According to sources, Rodgers has mocked Gutekunst in group chats with his teammates in Green Bay by referring to the GM as Jerry Krause. The late Krause, the general manager of the Chicago Bulls during their run of six NBA championships, was loathed by Michael Jordan for some personnel moves with which Jordan disagreed. The Packers are well aware of Rodgers’ hard feelings toward Gutekunst but, at this point, are taking the high road insisting their sole focus is having Rodgers as their quarterback in 2021 and beyond. In recent months, according to sources, the Packers have offered to make the 37-year-old Rodgers the NFL’s highest-paid quarterback. Those overtures were turned aside. The fractured relationship between quarterback and team seems to have little or nothing to do with money.
    Dak: 17,634 @ 66.0%, 7.7 per att, 106+24 TD, 40 INT+34 FMB, 97.3 Rate
    Wentz: 16,811 @ 62.7%, 6.7 per att, 113+8 TD, 50 INT+58 FMB, 89.2 Rate

    Quote Originally Posted by manbearchef View Post
    I'll eat a shoe if BB is still coaching in 5 years.
    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    Sticking to traditions:

    IF Wentz is a Philadelphia Eagle in 2021, he will be the starter. If not, bye bye PSD, I'll leave.
    "Hater" is a term used by weak minded people in the face of legitimate criticism.
    -Scott van Pelt

  10. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    LOL, Gary is the starter and isn't trash. He also was one of the best athletes in the draft, so he's not low ceiling by any stretch of the imagination. Degura actually started the 1 of the 2 games he was healthy last year. Not saying he's a great pick, but hell play a bunch of snaps once he's healthy as a TE and H-back. The Packers don't give Jones major touches, so Dillon is probably in line for a pretty decent touch count. Jenkins literally got all pro votes last year in his 2nd season, so I think maybe that's a bit more than "seems okay."

    And turns out there's more to being GM than just drafting. Packers were under 0.500 in the final year before Gute and under 0.500 in Gute's first year. He proceeded to sign some impact FAs and in years 2 and 3 the team went 26-6 and made it to 2 straight NFC Champ games. Hard to say the roster is horrible and the GM has done an awful job.
    I never said he was trash, he just wasn't a great pick. I was misremembering his athleticism, but I still remember laughing when they took him instead of Burns since he was mocked as a later 1st rounder. He wasn't a starter, Smith and Smith started and he's only started 4 games in two years; he also only played 44% of snaps last year while Smith and Smith were near 80%.

    Deguara can become an elite TE and it was still a dumb selection at the time of the draft. Regardless of health he was TE4 and spent a 3rd on him. There's no value to spending a premium pick on a backup TE. Eglton was sandwiched between two 1TAPs on the best OL in the league, I'm not surprised that he received votes.

    I've never said the roster was horrible, matter of fact I've argued all year that they're stacked on offense (best QB, best OL, best run efficiency, best WR, top 10 TE). My point is the Packers are in win-now mode with Rodgers pushing 40, but the GM is drafting like a team that's building for the future (and not doing a great job at that).

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullseyed View Post
    Yep. And he's had a top 5 WR/top 5 RB combo for a couple years now.

    The real issue is Rodgers isn't good enough to lift a WR3 the way Brady (see: Scott Miller) or Mahomes (see: Mecole Hardman / Demarcus Robinson) does. Even Josh Allen took a guy like Gabriel Davis (2020 4th round / 128 overall) and got 600 yards out of him.

    Rodgers couldn't do anything with Jimmy Graham when they got him a $12.6M pass catcher. Didn't do enough with Cobb at $12.5M before that.


    So people say he has been "missing" a WR2 for a bit. But he just doesn't use them when he has them.
    Aaron Jones as a top 5 back? Barkley, Zeke, Chubb, CMC, Kamara, Cook?

    I can't believe someone actually posted this -- astonished

    A-Rod basically made James Jones 11 million dollars by himself and constantly developed connections with receivers who ended up becoming his alpha eventually (Jennings -> Jordy -> Adams).

    The corpse of Jimmy Graham? They overpaid that slog of a tight end by a large bit and Cobb spent his last three years with the Packers missing extensive time and being a shell of himself.

    2008
    Greg Jennings 1,200 yards
    Donald Driver 1,000 yards
    Jordy Nelson 366 yards

    2009
    Greg Jennings 1,000 yards
    Donald Driver 1,000 yards
    Jermichael Finley 675 yards
    James Jones + Jordy combine for 750 yards

    2010
    Greg Jennings 1,200 yards
    Donald Driver 565 yards
    James Jones 675 yards
    Jordy Nelson 580 yards

    2011
    Jordy Nelson 1,200 yards
    Greg Jennings 950 yards
    Jermichael Finley 765 yards
    James Jones 635 yards

    2012
    Randall Cobb 950 yards
    Jordy nelson 785 yards
    Jermichael Finley 665 yards
    Greg Jennings 365 yards

    2013
    Jordy Nelson 1,300 yards
    James Jones 817 yards
    Jarrett Boykin 680 yards
    Randall Cobb 430 yards

    Incase we forget who Jarrett Boykin is he had 27 yards in 2012 and 23 in 2014 -- never played a snap again

    Should I continue? I mean look at this past season where he had a UDFA TE start over two recent third round picks and catch 11 touchdowns. The only way MVS or Lazard would be any good is if they had a love child together -- MVS is all speed with no technique or hands (#1 in drop rate) and Lazard is a steady slow footed receiver

    2020
    Davante Adams 1,375 yards
    MVS 690 yards
    Allen Lazard 451 yards
    Robert Tonyan 585 yards
    Last edited by Westbrook36; 05-05-2021 at 11:32 AM.

  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Westbrook36 View Post
    Aaron Jones as a top 5 back? Barkley, Zeke, Chubb, CMC, Kamara, Cook?

    I can't believe someone actually posted this -- astonished
    Those who watch football probably know Aaron Jones finished with 1,104 yards (4th) at 5.5 yards per attempt (3rd).

    He was a more efficient RB than Derrick Henry, who managed 5.4 yards per attempt.

    Nick Chubb is the only starting RB to outplay Jones, with 1,067 yards (7th) and 5.6 yards per attempt (2nd). JK Dobbins managed 6.0 yards per attempt, as the #2 RB behind Lamar Jackson for the Ravens.
    Dak: 17,634 @ 66.0%, 7.7 per att, 106+24 TD, 40 INT+34 FMB, 97.3 Rate
    Wentz: 16,811 @ 62.7%, 6.7 per att, 113+8 TD, 50 INT+58 FMB, 89.2 Rate

    Quote Originally Posted by manbearchef View Post
    I'll eat a shoe if BB is still coaching in 5 years.
    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    Sticking to traditions:

    IF Wentz is a Philadelphia Eagle in 2021, he will be the starter. If not, bye bye PSD, I'll leave.
    "Hater" is a term used by weak minded people in the face of legitimate criticism.
    -Scott van Pelt

  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullseyed View Post
    Those who watch football probably know Aaron Jones finished with 1,104 yards (4th) at 5.5 yards per attempt (3rd).

    He was a more efficient RB than Derrick Henry, who managed 5.4 yards per attempt.

    Nick Chubb is the only starting RB to outplay Jones, with 1,067 yards (7th) and 5.6 yards per attempt (2nd). JK Dobbins managed 6.0 yards per attempt, as the #2 RB behind Lamar Jackson for the Ravens.
    Is it not more impressive for someone like Derrick Henry or Dalvin Cook to produce in that manner as the CENTERPIECE of the offense? Instead of someone like Aaron Jones who gets to pick his spots and is put in favorable situations often because of Rodgers. It's not downplaying the ability of Jones, but without Derrick Henry that play action passing attack from Tannehill does not work nearly the same.

    Efficiency is nice and typically drops when you see larger volumes of work. Since you mention watching football, wouldn't you have mentioned some football context as well?

    The astonishment came from saying Aaron Rodgers doesn't support a #2 receiver which he's done countless times

  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Westbrook36 View Post
    Is it not more impressive for someone like Derrick Henry or Dalvin Cook to produce in that manner as the CENTERPIECE of the offense? Instead of someone like Aaron Jones who gets to pick his spots and is put in favorable situations often because of Rodgers. It's not downplaying the ability of Jones, but without Derrick Henry that play action passing attack from Tannehill does not work nearly the same.

    Efficiency is nice and typically drops when you see larger volumes of work. Since you mention watching football, wouldn't you have mentioned some football context as well?
    Derrick Henry put up 2027 yards on 378 rushes in 2020 (5.4 y/a).
    DeMarco Murray put up 1845 yards on 392 rushes in 2014 (4.7 y/a).
    Dalvin Cook put up 1557 yards on 312 rushes in 2020 (5.0 y/a).
    DeMarco Murray put up 1121 yards on 217 rushes in 2013 (5.2 y/a).
    Aaron Jones put up 1104 yards on 201 rushes in 2020 (5.5 y/a).



    Derrick Henry is good, but he's not that different than Aaron Jones, who is also good. Any good RB will produce if given a 350+ rush workload.



    Quote Originally Posted by Westbrook36 View Post
    The astonishment came from saying Aaron Rodgers doesn't support a #2 receiver which he's done countless times
    Then he has no reason to complain about the Packers draft choices. So which is it?
    Dak: 17,634 @ 66.0%, 7.7 per att, 106+24 TD, 40 INT+34 FMB, 97.3 Rate
    Wentz: 16,811 @ 62.7%, 6.7 per att, 113+8 TD, 50 INT+58 FMB, 89.2 Rate

    Quote Originally Posted by manbearchef View Post
    I'll eat a shoe if BB is still coaching in 5 years.
    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    Sticking to traditions:

    IF Wentz is a Philadelphia Eagle in 2021, he will be the starter. If not, bye bye PSD, I'll leave.
    "Hater" is a term used by weak minded people in the face of legitimate criticism.
    -Scott van Pelt

  15. #150
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    At this point I'd just trade him. Rumor has it he wants the GM fired and considering he got Mike McCarthy fired, it shows he's a toxic player. No matter how good he is, it isn't worth the drama.

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