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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    Read through the second paragraph again.
    ď I still think he is vastly over paidĒ

    I disagree.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    ď I still think he is vastly over paidĒ

    I disagree.
    We established this many moons ago. He is the 3rd highest paid pf in the league after Giannis and Davis. Iíll just leave it at that.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    We established this many moons ago. He is the 3rd highest paid pf in the league after Giannis and Davis. Iíll just leave it at that.
    Which brings me back to my question.
    Whoch PF do you rank between Davis and Siakam? How much do you think players in that tier deserve to get paid?

    Davis and giannis will make about 1/3 more than what siakam will.

    Similar to siakam (obviously siakam is not in their tier), those dudes contribute on both sides of the ball.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Which brings me back to my question.
    Whoch PF do you rank between Davis and Siakam? How much do you think players in that tier deserve to get paid?

    Davis and giannis will make about 1/3 more than what siakam will.

    Similar to siakam (obviously siakam is not in their tier), those dudes contribute on both sides of the ball.
    Anthony Davis contract next 3 years vs Saikams contract next 3 years

    Siakam 31.3, 33.6, 35.9
    Davis 32.7, 35.3, 37.9

    Those are pretty similar numbers wouldn't you say?

    Now to answer your question
    Zion, Randle, & Sabonis are all better players. They are all at different points in their careers so comparing contracts doesn't make much sense but ok I'll humor you. Sabonis & Randle both make under 20 mill. Zion is on a rookie contract, but lets look at his sophomore numbers, he is averaging 26.8, 7.1, 3.6 with a 61% from the field and 32% from three and hes 20 years old.

    I see Siakams numbers dropping ever since his extension kicked in. He's making 1.3 threes for ever 4.4 that he's taking. His 3pt% is down to 29% after averaging above 35% last year. His field goal% is down to 45% in the last two seasons after being well above 50% the previous 3. His block, and stl numbers haven't changed but they leave a lot to be desired. If you can explain to me what the cause of the drop off in production is, I'm all ears. I have my opinion on it, but I'd like to hear yours.
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 04-29-2021 at 11:22 AM.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Also... what type of talent would you hope to add through FA? We havenít signed any good FA in a LOOOOOOng time. I donít think itís the avenue we should be hanging our hopes on.
    oh well hey if that's the mentality why not just max out as many of our own guys as we can. Who needs cap space **** it lets just give Lowry 30 mill. Were not gonna get any one in free agency anyways. Right? Having cap space is always useful.
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 04-29-2021 at 11:25 AM.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    oh well hey if that's the mentality why not just max out as many of our own guys as we can. Who needs cap space **** it lets just give Lowry 30 mill. Were not gonna get any one in free agency anyways. Right?

    What if you have a pretty good team next season and you want to add a mid level guy at the deadline, at a position where you might need some help for the post season, That doesn't appeal to you? Only star free agents matter? Having cap space is always useful.
    You taking an argument to an extreme and criticizing the extreme .

    The question is in regards to how much being over the cap hinders flexibility. It limits some flexibility for sure. But there are ways over the cap teams can bring in players.

    You mention the mid level exception- that is actually an exception for above cap teams. I'm not sure you meant it in terms the exception. But once Gary Trent Jr's contract kicks in, we are going to be back to an above cap team anyways. There won't be flexibility to use that cap space mid-season. Your example doesn't really work with the cap rules.

    Golden State managed contracts in a way that allowed them to bringing in D'Angelo Russell (trade exception created by using sign and trade when Durant level).
    The used another trade exception to bring in Oubre.

    The difference between Siakam making 25 million or 35 million doesn't really move the needle in terms of flexibility down the road. Unless of course the team puts a hard limit at the tax threshold.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by pebloemer View Post
    You taking an argument to an extreme and criticizing the extreme .

    The question is in regards to how much being over the cap hinders flexibility. It limits some flexibility for sure. But there are ways over the cap teams can bring in players.

    You mention the mid level exception- that is actually an exception for above cap teams. I'm not sure you meant it in terms the exception. But once Gary Trent Jr's contract kicks in, we are going to be back to an above cap team anyways. There won't be flexibility to use that cap space mid-season. Your example doesn't really work with the cap rules.

    Golden State managed contracts in a way that allowed them to bringing in D'Angelo Russell (trade exception created by using sign and trade when Durant level).
    The used another trade exception to bring in Oubre.

    The difference between Siakam making 25 million or 35 million doesn't really move the needle in terms of flexibility down the road. Unless of course the team puts a hard limit at the tax threshold.
    Its funny because this was a conversation that you and I were having. And I was simply agree with you. Wasn't I? even after saying I understand the market dictates the contract, you guys still want to "argue". I'm not arguing anything. Im simply saying Im not a fan of the contract. You said the same but then disappeared and never elaborated.

    And I'm not taking it to the extreme. I'm simply saying that cap space is useful in a sarcastic fashion. Someone saying we haven't landed a good free agent in a long time so we don't need the cap space to me is kind of extreme. And I giving an example of where we could use the extra cap space. I said adding a mid levelt talent, I never said using the mid level exception. Cap space can be used in many ways, I don't need to explain the importance of it to you.
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 04-29-2021 at 11:39 AM.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by pebloemer View Post
    You taking an argument to an extreme and criticizing the extreme .

    The question is in regards to how much being over the cap hinders flexibility. It limits some flexibility for sure. But there are ways over the cap teams can bring in players.

    You mention the mid level exception- that is actually an exception for above cap teams. I'm not sure you meant it in terms the exception. But once Gary Trent Jr's contract kicks in, we are going to be back to an above cap team anyways. There won't be flexibility to use that cap space mid-season. Your example doesn't really work with the cap rules.

    Golden State managed contracts in a way that allowed them to bringing in D'Angelo Russell (trade exception created by using sign and trade when Durant level).
    The used another trade exception to bring in Oubre.

    The difference between Siakam making 25 million or 35 million doesn't really move the needle in terms of flexibility down the road. Unless of course the team puts a hard limit at the tax threshold.
    So if Siakam was making 25 mill next year instead of 33.6 that wouldnt give us any extra cap space?

  9. #84
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    I don't understand what trading Durant for what turned in to Russell, and then flipping Russell for Wiggins and a pick has to do with Siakams contract. All you're telling me is that there are other ways to add talent, which I've already acknowledged. You're just pointing out that we can make trades. Well that's easy enough to understand. But what was your point about Siakams contract when saying you're not a fan of it? because I was agreeing with that. Which is what has lead us to this. So color me puzzled.

    Warriors were put in a position to do a S&T for Durant or lose him for nothing, I can see where that can relate to Lowry. but what does it have to do with Siakam?

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    Anthony Davis contract next 3 years vs Saikams contract next 3 years

    Siakam 31.3, 33.6, 35.9
    Davis 32.7, 35.3, 37.9

    Those are pretty similar numbers wouldn't you say?

    Now to answer your question
    Zion, Randle, & Sabonis are all better players. They are all at different points in their careers so comparing contracts doesn't make much sense but ok I'll humor you. Sabonis & Randle both make under 20 mill. Zion is on a rookie contract, but lets look at his sophomore numbers, he is averaging 26.8, 7.1, 3.6 with a 61% from the field and 32% from three and hes 20 years old.

    I see Siakams numbers dropping ever since his extension kicked in. He's making 1.3 threes for ever 4.4 that he's taking. His 3pt% is down to 29% after averaging above 35% last year. His field goal% is down to 45% in the last two seasons after being well above 50% the previous 3. His block, and stl numbers haven't changed but they leave a lot to be desired. If you can explain to me what is the cause of the drop off in production is, I'm all ears. I have my opinion on it, but I'd like to hear yours.
    While I agree that Siakam is probably not worth his contract, I don't think he's being paid absurdly too much. I would still peg him as a 25 mil guy. The problem with pointing out the other salaries is that the league salary system makes certain players never make as much as they should. AD is maxed out. In a world with no cap to player salary, he'd probably make 40+ mil. Randle came out of nowhere the last couple of seasons. I thought, (along with most people), that his ceiling was nice roll player/undersized center. He'll get his bag when he hits free agency. Obviously Zion is on a rookie scale contract, and I will respectfully disagree that Sabonis is better than Siakam, though I get that the argument can be made.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    Anthony Davis contract next 3 years vs Saikams contract next 3 years

    Siakam 31.3, 33.6, 35.9
    Davis 32.7, 35.3, 37.9

    Those are pretty similar numbers wouldn't you say?

    Now to answer your question
    Zion, Randle, & Sabonis are all better players. They are all at different points in their careers so comparing contracts doesn't make much sense but ok I'll humor you. Sabonis & Randle both make under 20 mill. Zion is on a rookie contract, but lets look at his sophomore numbers, he is averaging 26.8, 7.1, 3.6 with a 61% from the field and 32% from three and hes 20 years old.

    I see Siakams numbers dropping ever since his extension kicked in. He's making 1.3 threes for ever 4.4 that he's taking. His 3pt% is down to 29% after averaging above 35% last year. His field goal% is down to 45% in the last two seasons after being well above 50% the previous 3. His block, and stl numbers haven't changed but they leave a lot to be desired. If you can explain to me what the cause of the drop off in production is, I'm all ears. I have my opinion on it, but I'd like to hear yours.
    I admit I assumed Davis was getting giannis money. Should have looked into it before saying that.

    Regardless, if the CBA allowed it Davis would be making twice that.

    Zion is not a comp. thatís like comparing jokic to JV. Or giannis to siakam, or luka to FVV.
    I also donít have randle in the same group.
    Sabonis is better offensively but is not very good defensively. Weíll call it a wash.

    Sabonis and Randle signed before they broke out and made it into this tier. If either had won a championship as the 2nd or 3rd best player on the floor in their contract year then they would have gotten the max still though. Sabonis is certainly headed toward a max, probably randle too because itís NY.

    Letís call siakam the 4th or 5th best PF in the league. Pretty sure heís getting paid as the 3rd highest PF, with Zion in line to get a super max and pass him when heís eligible.

    My explanation for siakams drop in numbers is that he went from 3rd option to 1st option (any players FG% will drop in this scenario. If FVV didnít have to create with 5 seconds on the shot clock all the time then he would have an amazing FG% too). From finisher to creator - while still only playing basketball at all for 10 years. Blocks and steals do not equal defence. Heís a great defender who can switch on anybody and comes up with clutch defensive plays when the lights are brightest. And no mention of his jump in assists? The 3% is concerning, but Iím chalking it up to him focusing on adding playmaking to his toolbox. I hope he can put it all together moving forward. We have seen that he can shoot, I donít expect him to bargnani (but even if he did, he can still contribute without scoring which bargnani could not).

    FVV and OG becoming bargains doesnít make siakams deal bad. And like I said - I think any team in the entire league would love to add siakam for the right price. I donít think his contract is viewed as any type of albatross.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    oh well hey if that's the mentality why not just max out as many of our own guys as we can. Who needs cap space **** it lets just give Lowry 30 mill. Were not gonna get any one in free agency anyways. Right? Having cap space is always useful.
    Thatís silly.

    I just donít think we should be punting good players for a stab at FA. For our market it is better to have assets than it is to have cap space.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    So if Siakam was making 25 mill next year instead of 33.6 that wouldnt give us any extra cap space?
    Who are you adding with that extra 8mil?

    And he was never going to sign for 25 mil. That would be way under market. So the comparison is would you rather have siakam at 33.6, or whatever FA you could get with that money. I donít see anyone on his level out there. Definitely no one I would rather be giving 33 mil to.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    So if Siakam was making 25 mill next year instead of 33.6 that wouldnt give us any extra cap space?
    Earlier you were referencing Siakamís contract hindering us from adding free agents in a few years. It is why in my post I said ďdown the road.Ē We will have 4 big contract to carry plus whatever we do in FA this season. That is all I was saying

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    I don't understand what trading Durant for what turned in to Russell, and then flipping Russell for Wiggins and a pick has to do with Siakams contract. All you're telling me is that there are other ways to add talent, which I've already acknowledged. You're just pointing out that we can make trades. Well that's easy enough to understand. But what was your point about Siakams contract when saying you're not a fan of it? because I was agreeing with that. Which is what has lead us to this. So color me puzzled.

    Warriors were put in a position to do a S&T for Durant or lose him for nothing, I can see where that can relate to Lowry. but what does it have to do with Siakam?
    I think we fundamentally agree that it is more than weíd like. I just donít think it will be much of a hindrance. The value we are getting on OV and FVV should offset it.

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