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  1. #436
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    Quote Originally Posted by TakeAnotherL View Post
    Rose on the low has been one of the best trades during the season for any team.

    Hes been everything we could of asked for, how much hes matured mentally and bball iq wise is crazy. I didn't think he would be a guy who could lose so much athleticism and still thrive.
    Rose doesnít have his insane athleticism that he had in his early 20s, but heís still plenty fast and has some juice in his legs. Heís had some very impressive blocks on the perimeter where someone with the same size and less athleticism wouldnít be able to make a play. But he has adjusted quite well to his current abilities and limitations and is a better shooter than he was in the past.

  2. #437
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    Quote Originally Posted by D-Leethal View Post
    If Mitch got hurt and we went on a 6 game streak shortly after maybe I would agree with you. But weíve seen this team for a looong time without Mitch. It wasnít any better than the team with Mitch until recently. This stretch weíre on would only be accentuated if Mitch was here.

    The drop off from Mitch to Noel is not huge but it was evident whenever they were both in the lineup IMO. Mitch is getting better and likely would have continued to improve throughout the year if he stayed healthy and made us even better right now during our peak as a team.

    Mitchís ceiling is still not even really visible. No one knows how good he can be down the road, which is a big factor in terms of locking him up long term. Noel is who he is. I want this team to have both of those guys for the next 4 years. That tandem is a load for any offense to handle.

    Centers might not be that important to a lot of teams, but this team has built its identity around defense and more specifically paint/rim protection. Those guys are huge for us and huge for Thibs. 48 mins of Mitch/Noel gives us an edge every night.
    I disagree we don't need both guys here the game has changed to much to invest in two centers Noel should be cheaper and we got 2 1st we can easily draft another big

  3. #438
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    Knick vs Pels part two game thread

    Quote Originally Posted by D-Leethal View Post
    If Mitch got hurt and we went on a 6 game streak shortly after maybe I would agree with you. But weíve seen this team for a looong time without Mitch. It wasnít any better than the team with Mitch until recently. This stretch weíre on would only be accentuated if Mitch was here.

    The drop off from Mitch to Noel is not huge but it was evident whenever they were both in the lineup IMO. Mitch is getting better and likely would have continued to improve throughout the year if he stayed healthy and made us even better right now during our peak as a team.

    Mitchís ceiling is still not even really visible. No one knows how good he can be down the road, which is a big factor in terms of locking him up long term. Noel is who he is. I want this team to have both of those guys for the next 4 years. That tandem is a load for any offense to handle.

    Centers might not be that important to a lot of teams, but this team has built its identity around defense and more specifically paint/rim protection. Those guys are huge for us and huge for Thibs. 48 mins of Mitch/Noel gives us an edge every night.
    I think you can have that Identity and a second unit that might have have a lower floor but a much higher ceiling bc everyone on the floor can do things like catch, run, and pass. The Rose, Q, Burks, Toppin, Taj lineup would actually go on runs. It's ok to be a grinding team but you should incorporate other things. I love what Noel is bringing but if you have Mitch playing 28 to 30 mins a night how much are you going to give him and are even better with him then Gibson over 12 mins most nights? What lose Noel but bring back Gibson (vet min) and bring in Mo Hawkless (just signed for one year 3 million) for next to nothing.

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  4. #439
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    I think you can have that Identity and a second unit that might have have a lower floor but a much higher ceiling bc everyone on the floor can do things like catch, run, and pass. The Rose, Q, Burks, Toppin, Taj lineup would actually go on runs. It's ok to be a grinding team but you should incorporate other things. I love what Noel is bringing but if you have Mitch playing 28 to 30 mins a night how much are you going to give him and are even better with him then Gibson over 12 mins most nights?


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    Iím still going back to my idea of going for Olynyk. Would that rotation work, between Mitch, Noel, Olynyk, Randle, or would there only be room for 3. He would bring a different dynamic

    It would also be protection against injury, would have a capable fill in, should any of them get hurt

  5. #440
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    Knick vs Pels part two game thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadyOne View Post
    Iím still going back to my idea of going for Olynyk. Would that rotation work, between Mitch, Noel, Olynyk, Randle, or would there only be room for 3. He would bring a different dynamic

    It would also be protection against injury, would have a capable fill in, should any of them get hurt
    He works and I like him a lot on offense. I do wonder if we would find him mins to justify his cost (if his cost is cheap- **** yeah). He would make the second unit dynamic. I definitely think he means you are not bringing back Noel.
    Maybe shopping Toppin to

    If we are going to give Toppin a shot it seems like a role we could fill on the cheap. Mo Hawkless or Daniel Thesis with Taj work if we invest less here. If Mitch goes down and you don't bring back Noel you lose a lot but if he is healthy I think you are good

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  6. #441
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    Quote Originally Posted by TakeAnotherL View Post
    This win streak makes me worried about how many teams may start to want to take our players in the off season, and price us out.
    Well for starters they can't get Randle since we have his option.

    Second, players want 3 things: money, playing time, winning team

    We literally are one of a few teams that can offer that. Only now does the difference of MSG, NY appeal matter when all things are equal.

    Having said that, Rose, burks, bullock, Noel, they all gonna want to come back to NY first. NY will be there preference if all things are equal.

    The Knicks are BACK...part 2

  7. #442
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    Quote Originally Posted by east fb knicks View Post
    I disagree we don't need both guys here the game has changed to much to invest in two centers Noel should be cheaper and we got 2 1st we can easily draft another big
    We already have Mitch locked in for next season.

    The Knicks are BACK...part 2

  8. #443
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    why is there even a discussion about Mitch? First things is knicks will sign FA's with all of Mitch' 1.8m cap hold, then they will extend him and with him missing so many games he may only get around 8m, you don't let a guy that can dominate and who has yet to fill his potential walk for that.

    Now that said if he's included in one of those trades that brings us back someone really, really good, then well pending that player yea.

    But guys forget he's right out of HS this is his first year he got to start, who knows what he can really be and how much more weight and muscle he can put on, he's worth keeping based on how we control him.

    Noel took a 5m deal this year , Thibs got his value up around the league, he will get around MLE type money now, hmmmm same as mitch?


    And I also like Kelly O a lot, he plays hard, can shoot, can play 2 positions and perfect off the bench for both positions. You can't have all three, but you could have two and Taj hanging out as a player coach ready to go when needed.

  9. #444
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    Mitch @ 10M and Noel @7M seems worth having that two headed monster and maintaining an elite level defense.

    The only thing that would give me pause is Obi, because his only path here is playing some backup C. So that really comes down to the staff and FO's belief in his ability to grow into that role. Hard to see where that is going from a fan's point of view.

  10. #445
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    Quote Originally Posted by D-Leethal View Post
    Mitch @ 10M and Noel @7M seems worth having that two headed monster and maintaining an elite level defense.

    The only thing that would give me pause is Obi, because his only path here is playing some backup C. So that really comes down to the staff and FO's belief in his ability to grow into that role. Hard to see where that is going from a fan's point of view.
    I think regardless of how you feel about Obi (high on his prospects or not), itís unlikely heís going to stick around just to be Juliusí backup. Itís not good for him, and itís a waste for us. If the right deal comes along (Hi Zach Lavine or KAT), Iím sure heíd be the first one included.

  11. #446
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba313 View Post
    I think regardless of how you feel about Obi (high on his prospects or not), itís unlikely heís going to stick around just to be Juliusí backup. Itís not good for him, and itís a waste for us. If the right deal comes along (Hi Zach Lavine or KAT), Iím sure heíd be the first one included.
    Agree. If this Randle is real going forward, heís never getting less than 35 minutes a game. And I donít see any scenario Thibs is trusting him to be a backup C

  12. #447
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpgmaster86 View Post
    Well for starters they can't get Randle since we have his option.

    Second, players want 3 things: money, playing time, winning team

    We literally are one of a few teams that can offer that. Only now does the difference of MSG, NY appeal matter when all things are equal.

    Having said that, Rose, burks, bullock, Noel, they all gonna want to come back to NY first. NY will be there preference if all things are equal.
    Knicks have just under 50m in signed cap and if needed can easily just let Knox go for a song and a dance which would bring us down to 44m

    the cap will be over 112M, leaving us with 68m less ghost contracts making it all of 56m to use, then use the two exceptions and then extend Randle and Mitch. And still be under the lux tax.

    Thibs plays 10 guys make no bones about it:

    Randle, RJ, Mitch, IQ, Obi, and sadly one more year of carrying Noah's hit of 6.4m.

    So the question is how are the Knicks going to use that 56m, and two exceptions to fill out that ten man roster/

    Will the draft picks contribute? Maybe but not much, but we also know that the 8-10 guys don't play a lot of min.

    Team needs a PG and that will cost and needs a sniper and then Knicks have to see if Obi is worth his cap hold of 5.1m unless that is needed.

    So there really isn't a lot of wiggle room to sign FA's and then go back and retain our FA's.

    Guys are throwing out 25-30m deals like we have all this lux which we do but then you think Rose, Bullock, Noel, Burks, even Payton are coming back for VET MIN?

    Only guy who may take vet min is Taj and his vet min is nearly 3m, but his cap hold is only 1.7m

    FYI on cap holds:

    Frank=18.5m
    Rose= 10m
    Bullock=5.5m
    Burks= 7.2m
    Noel =6m
    Payton =6.2m
    Harper = 1.7m
    Pinson= 0

    Based on the cap holds I can see the KNicks retaining Taj and Harper for roster spots since they are basically the same as ghosts and not lose either, who knows about Harper?

    Rose is valuable but he's not coming back for anything less than around what he is getting here, now we do have his early bird rights but who cares, see his cap?

    So when fans are saying go get Ball and pay him 25m understand that leaves 31m + two exceptions to get basically 4 more players .

    Now my thoughts and opinion is Rose with his Thib's relationship and how he is playing well he will get the MLE, so there is one exception gone, that way we can renounce him and he knows he's a Knick after FA using the exception.

    I honestly don't feel you can bring back both Bullock and Burk and feel with the Randle/Bullock hookup Knicks will keep him and Burks will get other offers near MLE to play for a contender. So now what will Bullock take from the cap because he's not taking the mini exception, no way, so figure he will need as a starter around 8m.

    So I see because of cap holds Mitch staying and Noel gone to another team because we just can't do it.

    Now you are looking at the following with the mini exception, 48m left in cap: 42m with Knox:

    Randle,Mitch, Obi, IQ, Rose, Bullock, RJ , Taj, Harper(or vet min player)

    that leaves 3 or 4 spots and and 42m or 48m to spend.

    so when you say go get both, better make sure they will make under 48m between them.


    for example you want Lowry, Conley, DeRozan, each will demand at least 25m so start there,

    For me under this scenario from what we heard and read, Knicks will make a play For both DeRozan and Ball, you just watch that will eat up all the balance of the cap and knock Knox out.

  13. #448
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    Quote Originally Posted by still a fan View Post
    Knicks have just under 50m in signed cap and if needed can easily just let Knox go for a song and a dance which would bring us down to 44m

    the cap will be over 112M, leaving us with 68m less ghost contracts making it all of 56m to use, then use the two exceptions and then extend Randle and Mitch. And still be under the lux tax.

    Thibs plays 10 guys make no bones about it:

    Randle, RJ, Mitch, IQ, Obi, and sadly one more year of carrying Noah's hit of 6.4m.

    So the question is how are the Knicks going to use that 56m, and two exceptions to fill out that ten man roster/

    Will the draft picks contribute? Maybe but not much, but we also know that the 8-10 guys don't play a lot of min.

    Team needs a PG and that will cost and needs a sniper and then Knicks have to see if Obi is worth his cap hold of 5.1m unless that is needed.

    So there really isn't a lot of wiggle room to sign FA's and then go back and retain our FA's.

    Guys are throwing out 25-30m deals like we have all this lux which we do but then you think Rose, Bullock, Noel, Burks, even Payton are coming back for VET MIN?

    Only guy who may take vet min is Taj and his vet min is nearly 3m, but his cap hold is only 1.7m

    FYI on cap holds:

    Frank=18.5m
    Rose= 10m
    Bullock=5.5m
    Burks= 7.2m
    Noel =6m
    Payton =6.2m
    Harper = 1.7m
    Pinson= 0

    Based on the cap holds I can see the KNicks retaining Taj and Harper for roster spots since they are basically the same as ghosts and not lose either, who knows about Harper?

    Rose is valuable but he's not coming back for anything less than around what he is getting here, now we do have his early bird rights but who cares, see his cap?

    So when fans are saying go get Ball and pay him 25m understand that leaves 31m + two exceptions to get basically 4 more players .

    Now my thoughts and opinion is Rose with his Thib's relationship and how he is playing well he will get the MLE, so there is one exception gone, that way we can renounce him and he knows he's a Knick after FA using the exception.

    I honestly don't feel you can bring back both Bullock and Burk and feel with the Randle/Bullock hookup Knicks will keep him and Burks will get other offers near MLE to play for a contender. So now what will Bullock take from the cap because he's not taking the mini exception, no way, so figure he will need as a starter around 8m.

    So I see because of cap holds Mitch staying and Noel gone to another team because we just can't do it.

    Now you are looking at the following with the mini exception, 48m left in cap: 42m with Knox:

    Randle,Mitch, Obi, IQ, Rose, Bullock, RJ , Taj, Harper(or vet min player)

    that leaves 3 or 4 spots and and 42m or 48m to spend.

    so when you say go get both, better make sure they will make under 48m between them.


    for example you want Lowry, Conley, DeRozan, each will demand at least 25m so start there,

    For me under this scenario from what we heard and read, Knicks will make a play For both DeRozan and Ball, you just watch that will eat up all the balance of the cap and knock Knox out.
    Good assessment...you have Frank at 18.5 mil?

    The Knicks are BACK...part 2

  14. #449
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpgmaster86 View Post
    Good assessment...you have Frank at 18.5 mil?
    NO, those are the cap holds if Knicks don't renounce players, so that is what Frank is on the cap for, I've been trying to explain this to posters. Frank and his agent will not sit back and wait on the Knicks and the KNicks are not wasting any of that precious cap on Frank.

    I still remain the way Dallas don't play defense, Frank fits there really well, and even in GS.

  15. #450
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    Knick vs Pels part two game thread

    Quote Originally Posted by D-Leethal View Post
    Mitch @ 10M and Noel @7M seems worth having that two headed monster and maintaining an elite level defense.

    The only thing that would give me pause is Obi, because his only path here is playing some backup C. So that really comes down to the staff and FO's belief in his ability to grow into that role. Hard to see where that is going from a fan's point of view.
    Even without Toppin id rather spend money elsewhere and have players that allow for more versatility in play style.
    Do you really want to always have a guy on floor with 0 ball skills? I'd rather have the option of playing multiple ways

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    Last edited by ewing; 04-20-2021 at 09:55 AM.
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