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  1. #1
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    Has the Great Drummond-Valančiūnas debate been settled?

    Both entered the league at the same time, both had promising rookie seasons showcasing their potential.... then
    the game completely went away from them. Still, they remain productive players, Val helping the Grizz make the playoffs for the first time in years (possibly) and Drummond went from unwanted on a lotto team to starting for the champs.

    I remember quite a few arguments asking who the better prospect was, I was firmly in the Drummond camp, superior numbers at a younger age blinded me to his flaws and the argument for Jonas was obviously his skillset. In the end, IDK whos had the better career, what say you?

  2. #2
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    I donít think itís ever been much of a debate. JV has always been better. Never mind the stats, JV impacts the game way more.

  3. #3
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    JV to me, always has been. Drummond collects the stats with less impact.

  4. #4
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    JV was handcuffed by Dwane Casey for basically his entire tenure with the Raps. No plays were run for him and DC went as far as even saying that JV doesn't get the ball unless he establishes DEEP position in the post. The style of defence DC ran had JV coming out to the perimeter more than he should have which let him be exposed.

    I don't watch much of Drummond but JV was one of the best kept secrets before going to Memphis. He's made improvements defensively but on offence he's an absolute weapon and always has been. Incredibly soft hands around the rim and can take pretty much anyone 1v1 in the paint.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  5. #5
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    lol I never knew Masai chimed in on this debate : https://youtu.be/fshdlkhjIbU

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    lol I never knew Masai chimed in on this debate : https://youtu.be/fshdlkhjIbU
    Masai knows all. Dude canned the reigning COY and rightfully so. It's sad how JV was dealt when Nurse was finally using him the way he should've been used for years. Yes his minutes were still limited but Nurse would have the weak side cleared for JV to get tons of touches.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    Both entered the league at the same time, both had promising rookie seasons showcasing their potential.... then
    the game completely went away from them. Still, they remain productive players, Val helping the Grizz make the playoffs for the first time in years (possibly) and Drummond went from unwanted on a lotto team to starting for the champs.

    I remember quite a few arguments asking who the better prospect was, I was firmly in the Drummond camp, superior numbers at a younger age blinded me to his flaws and the argument for Jonas was obviously his skillset. In the end, IDK whos had the better career, what say you?
    wait what "superior numbers" does Drummond have over JV exactly? Have you peered into his actual adjusted rebounding rates? The numbers are hilarious, (e.g. the Pistons were a better offensive rebounding team as a whole with Drummond on the bench).

    I think their defense is comparable, neither being especially skilled or proactive on that end, but competent enough to utilize their size to give them around that +1.5ish type impact, maybe a bit lower depending on how you feel about either.

    Their offense is a bit harder to compare, as on one hand I'm not sure Drummond really has a viable offensive skill set that will scale in any way besides making a 26 win team a 30 win team, whereas in order for JV to be utilized maximally you'd really have to give him a good amount of interior touches, which is probably rarely ever the best choice of offense on a playoff level team. I'd still lean JV in this regard though, as I think his rim finishing and decision making provides better bailout scoring in bricked half court sets than anything Drummond has to offer.

    Ultimately this is a thread comparing two replacement level/average starting quality bigs so I don't see much of a difference between either, but if I had to choose JV seems like the clear better option.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by VCaintdead17 View Post
    wait what "superior numbers" does Drummond have over JV exactly? Have you peered into his actual adjusted rebounding rates? The numbers are hilarious, (e.g. the Pistons were a better offensive rebounding team as a whole with Drummond on the bench).

    I think their defense is comparable, neither being especially skilled or proactive on that end, but competent enough to utilize their size to give them around that +1.5ish type impact, maybe a bit lower depending on how you feel about either.

    Their offense is a bit harder to compare, as on one hand I'm not sure Drummond really has a viable offensive skill set that will scale in any way besides making a 26 win team a 30 win team, whereas in order for JV to be utilized maximally you'd really have to give him a good amount of interior touches, which is probably rarely ever the best choice of offense on a playoff level team. I'd still lean JV in this regard though, as I think his rim finishing and decision making provides better bailout scoring in bricked half court sets than anything Drummond has to offer.

    Ultimately this is a thread comparing two replacement level/average starting quality bigs so I don't see much of a difference between either, but if I had to choose JV seems like the clear better option.
    JV is better than just replacement level.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciaban2.0 View Post
    JV is better than just replacement level.
    ehhh, not quite. I don't see any evidence for him having the impact of anything more than like a league average starter. Not particularly good on defense, not a good passer, and his scoring palette is pretty easy to scheme for in a playoff context. He's been pretty nutty on the offensive boards this year, but I'm not sure how much net value that really has in the grand scheme of things.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by VCaintdead17 View Post
    ehhh, not quite. I don't see any evidence for him having the impact of anything more than like a league average starter. Not particularly good on defense, not a good passer, and his scoring palette is pretty easy to scheme for in a playoff context. He's been pretty nutty on the offensive boards this year, but I'm not sure how much net value that really has in the grand scheme of things.
    By that standard thereís only 5 good centres in the league. JV is 17&12 and leading his young team to the playoffs. Iíd say thatís pretty good. Replacement level? Meaning what? You can replace him with any other Center and the Grizzlies stay afloat? I donít think so.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by VCaintdead17 View Post
    wait what "superior numbers" does Drummond have over JV exactly? Have you peered into his actual adjusted rebounding rates? The numbers are hilarious, (e.g. the Pistons were a better offensive rebounding team as a whole with Drummond on the bench).

    I think their defense is comparable, neither being especially skilled or proactive on that end, but competent enough to utilize their size to give them around that +1.5ish type impact, maybe a bit lower depending on how you feel about either.

    Their offense is a bit harder to compare, as on one hand I'm not sure Drummond really has a viable offensive skill set that will scale in any way besides making a 26 win team a 30 win team, whereas in order for JV to be utilized maximally you'd really have to give him a good amount of interior touches, which is probably rarely ever the best choice of offense on a playoff level team. I'd still lean JV in this regard though, as I think his rim finishing and decision making provides better bailout scoring in bricked half court sets than anything Drummond has to offer.

    Ultimately this is a thread comparing two replacement level/average starting quality bigs so I don't see much of a difference between either, but if I had to choose JV seems like the clear better option.
    +/- analysis wasn't as important to me back then, which is funny to admit today given that I was always among the biggest proponents for it but yeah, it was all the individual barometers/weighted metrics that swayed me

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    By that standard thereís only 5 good centres in the league. JV is 17&12 and leading his young team to the playoffs. Iíd say thatís pretty good. Replacement level? Meaning what? You can replace him with any other Center and the Grizzlies stay afloat? I donít think so.
    JV isn't the reason the Grizzlies are in contention for the playoffs lol. And it's just empirically true that most starters in the league are....league average starters. Don't know what you were trying to get at there.

    You list 17 and 12 and refuse to contextualize how these numbers affect the Grizzlies as a team, both in terms of global team offense and win pace. If someone is able to glance at his ESPN page for 10 seconds and formulate literally the exact same argument you've just presented, chances are you haven't done your homework.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by VCaintdead17 View Post
    JV isn't the reason the Grizzlies are in contention for the playoffs lol. And it's just empirically true that most starters in the league are....league average starters. Don't know what you were trying to get at there.

    You list 17 and 12 and refuse to contextualize how these numbers affect the Grizzlies as a team, both in terms of global team offense and win pace. If someone is able to glance at his ESPN page for 10 seconds and formulate literally the exact same argument you've just presented, chances are you haven't done your homework.
    His affect on regional team offensive is really good though


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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by VCaintdead17 View Post
    JV isn't the reason the Grizzlies are in contention for the playoffs lol. And it's just empirically true that most starters in the league are....league average starters. Don't know what you were trying to get at there.

    You list 17 and 12 and refuse to contextualize how these numbers affect the Grizzlies as a team, both in terms of global team offense and win pace. If someone is able to glance at his ESPN page for 10 seconds and formulate literally the exact same argument you've just presented, chances are you haven't done your homework.
    Primarily JA & JV or you simply donít watch Memphis games.

    Iíve only been following JV since he got drafted. But ok

  15. #15
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    Dang, JV's win shares and estimated wins added are both leading the team by a wide margin.

    Surprising to me but I don't watch him or the Grizzlies.

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