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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    I dont know, maybe because without bin laden al qaeda has no influence, they want to keep their influence.
    And that seems more likely to you?

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I'm not suggesting we knew where exactly Bin Laden was in 2002, but we knew he had fled to Pakistan:

    https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/t...to%20outsiders.

    And as you say, Pakistan wasn't giving him up, hence the need to go and get him.

    So, sure you can call it an invasion. Russia invaded Georgia too, and then left after they accomplished their mission. In fact, I think just threatening Pakistan that we were going to go into the country if they didn't give up Bin Laden would have been enough.


    The point is we broke a ton of rules and then right when we could have got Bin Laden, suddenly we were very concerned with rules. Our mission was to get Bin Laden, we could have done that as early as 2002.
    Pakistan never admitted to him being in the country and would have just denied it. They only admitted he was thereafter we went in and got him.

    So once again, how do we "go in and get him" without declaring war on Nuclear-Armed Pakistan? Because they never gave him up, and they would have kept denying he was there, and once again, even with our suspicions of him being in Pakistan, we didn't know his exact location until about 6 or 7 years later.
    Last edited by ciaban2.0; 04-14-2021 at 08:13 PM.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    And that seems more likely to you?
    Very much so. Just read through your link, look at how anonymous everything being referenced is.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciaban2.0 View Post
    Pakistan never admitted to him being in the country and would have just denied it. They only admitted he was there after we went in and got him.

    So once again, how do we "go into get him" without declaring war on Nuclear-Armed Pakistan? Because they never gave him up, and they would have kept denying he was there.
    We tell them either tell us his whereabouts or we are going in to get him. Pakistan isnít going to nuke us. Or threaten Pakistan with sanctions.

    We went there to get Bin Laden. So how can it be justifiable to go into Afghanistan to get him but not Pakistan?

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Very much so. Just read through your link, look at how anonymous everything being referenced is.
    I vehemently disagree. Itís borderline 9/11 Reuther conspiratorial to believe it wasnít Bin Laden when even Bin Ladenís own organization says it was.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I vehemently disagree. Itís borderline 9/11 Reuther conspiratorial to believe it wasnít Bin Laden when even Bin Ladenís own organization says it was.
    If you believe them that's fine, a lot of people believe a lot of things.

    Did you see the videos they released of bin laden watching himself on tv? Do you actually buy that?

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  7. #112
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    https://youtu.be/4E5-twoJ4Fk

    The Hill on the withdrawal

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    We tell them either tell us his whereabouts or we are going in to get him. Pakistan isnít going to nuke us. Or threaten Pakistan with sanctions.

    We went there to get Bin Laden. So how can it be justifiable to go into Afghanistan to get him but not Pakistan?
    Sanctions for what? They insist he's not there! And there's no evidence...btw what's to say we weren't doing these things anyway? We don't have access to the kinds of high-level negotiations that go on within our state dept.
    We declared war in that case, and in the early part of the war, it was believed he was still in Afganistan. There was no doubt that he was there for years, obviously, he left town and hid out in Pakistan, but we didn't have concrete evidence of it. Do you really think the Bush Admin would have hidden that evidence if they had it? We went to war in Iraq over a lesser pretense.
    If the Bush Admin could have proved he was there they would have come forward with that.

  9. #114
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    It's good to see that there is so much bipartisan support for leaving Afganistan, what sucks is how cynical everyone (rightfully) is about the situation.

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManRam View Post
    I have no idea what the perfect response to 9/11 looks like but I am 100% certain that doing literally nothing (militarily) would've been monumentally better for this country than what ultimately came to be. The invasion was immoral, costly, deadly and inefficient. A superfecta of pointlessness that hindered an entire generation of Americans only to further destabilized the world.

    Comparatively speaking, it probably would've been wonderful if the US military didn't do anything in response to 9/11.

    The Bin Laden thing is weird because 1) ciaban is just wrong about a lot of it and 2) he's been dead now for a longer amount of time than he's been alive for the War in Afghanistan. MF'er died 10 years ago. We've had 3 Presidents since then. We're still there.
    Just our domestic legislative response alone was incredibly bad for us.

  11. #116
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    One of the few things I agreed with Trump on (though not always timing) was getting troops back stateside.

    Why would anyone be mad at this? Get our military out of **** thatís not our business.

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManRam View Post
    Economic sanctions on Venezuela undeniably have had a massive impact on Venezuela's economy. At the very least, I don't see how anyone could argue that we've actually had a positive impact on the people of Venezuela with our foreign policy. Or our foreign policy in general in that region for as long as any of us have been alive.

    And you can say "haven't they always had these problems" but if you're saying so without examining the role American imperialism has played in almost the entire region that's kinda silly. We've been trying to topple every government and tank every economy of every country in Central/South America that we don't feel like will be an economic ally of ours. Including Venezuela! Multiple times!

    I KNOW you don't think our handling of Venezeula has anything to do with the USA's benevolence and compassion for the Venezuelan people and not their oil and how it can benefit us. Same with Bolivia. Same with the other 50 regime changes and coups we've backed!

    Leave 'em alone.

    And that includes sanctions.


    It's the same problem with the Middle East. We can't see how much of the problem in the region WE are. How many of the problems we see are because of OUR involvement. It's the same think in Central and South America. You can't ignore the negative impacts American imperialism has had in these regions. And using the instability that we often sew as a justification to continue our imperialism is some backwards *** circular logic to me!
    I agree. And while we sanction we also give them hundred of millions of dollars of "aid" that tends to go to the wrong places.

    As a Bolivian I agree to leave them alone, but I also know that Bolivia is fully capable of screwing themselves over with no outside assistance.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManRam View Post
    Anyways, I gotta run and who knows when I'll be back.

    I'll just say this: if it's 9/11/2021 and there are zero boots on the ground in Afghanistan I will be ecstatic and I will give Joe Biden one (1) big pat on the back
    There is literally 0 chance of that happening. There will be someone there for years. I just want the obvious part of the presence to be out.

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciaban2.0 View Post
    Sanctions for what? They insist he's not there! And there's no evidence...btw what's to say we weren't doing these things anyway? We don't have access to the kinds of high-level negotiations that go on within our state dept.
    We declared war in that case, and in the early part of the war, it was believed he was still in Afganistan. There was no doubt that he was there for years, obviously, he left town and hid out in Pakistan, but we didn't have concrete evidence of it. Do you really think the Bush Admin would have hidden that evidence if they had it? We went to war in Iraq over a lesser pretense.
    If the Bush Admin could have proved he was there they would have come forward with that.
    There was no evidence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and we went in there. Itís not like we need to wait for a judgeís verdict to look in Pakistan.

    What is your solution? We should have done everything exactly as we did and then left in 2011? So 20 years of a failed war is bad but 10 years was the right idea?

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciaban2.0 View Post
    Pakistan never admitted to him being in the country and would have just denied it. They only admitted he was thereafter we went in and got him.

    So once again, how do we "go in and get him" without declaring war on Nuclear-Armed Pakistan? Because they never gave him up, and they would have kept denying he was there, and once again, even with our suspicions of him being in Pakistan, we didn't know his exact location until about 6 or 7 years later.
    If America wanted to go into pakistan they could have. What the hell was Pakistan gonna do?

    They gave america all access to all diff sections of the border and bases because George bush said you're either with us or against us.

    They would never have dreamt of taking on the us military. Especially with india right there at the border locked and loaded telling america come here and we'll flatten both pakistan and Afghanistan. Not a chance.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

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