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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Osama Bin-Laden was never in charge of Afghanistan.

    Our problem was we invaded and all our enemies just went across the Afghani-Pakistani border and we did not follow, thus we ended up in a never ending war. Osama Bin Laden was chilling in Pakistan for God knows how long. We should have followed them across to Pakistan and grabbed Bin Laden and then left.

    Our problem was we thought we could overthrow the Taliban. This is one of the biggest military blunders in modern history precisely because we saw this exact scenario play out when Russia invaded in the 80's. We didn't learn the primary lesson of a war that was barely over 10 years old...
    Your talking about invading Pakistan, the only reason the raid on his compound worked is because after years of searching we finally figured out where he was hiding.
    If we had entered Pakistan right away we would have been looking for him blindly, and I doubt the nuclearly armed Pakistani govt would have been OK with us romping around their country until we found him. On top of that there wasn't enough evidence (initially) that he went into Pakistan, not enough to justify invading a sovereign nation.

    What your suggesting wouldn't have
    A)worked
    or
    B)been legal.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciaban2.0 View Post
    Considering he admitted to doing it, I don't think that would have been a very long investigation.
    Interesting. So then why the war with afghanistan? Taliban said if he actually did it they'll hand him over. So then why the war? Why not save all those money and lives?

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    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManRam View Post
    I have no idea what the perfect response to 9/11 looks like but I am 100% certain that doing literally nothing (militarily) would've been monumentally better for this country than what ultimately came to be. The invasion was immoral, costly, deadly and inefficient. A superfecta of pointlessness that hindered an entire generation of Americans only to further destabilized the world.

    Comparatively speaking, it probably would've been wonderful if the US military didn't do anything in response to 9/11.

    The Bin Laden thing is weird because 1) ciaban is just wrong about a lot of it and 2) he's been dead now for a longer amount of time than he's been alive for the War in Afghanistan. MF'er died 10 years ago. We've had 3 Presidents since then. We're still there.
    There's no way that we could have done nothing in the wake of 9/11.

    Yes Bin Laden has been dead for like a decade, that's when we should have left.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManRam View Post
    Terrorism
    Communism
    RUSSIA!
    CHINA!


    The present version of America collapses without it's imperialism. We need all the boogeymen we can get. We need all the global enemies we can find!
    Lmao, the China one be cracking me up. I didnt even know the anti china brainwash was on full rev til like a year ago, lol. I see it a lot more now tho, I think at this point everyone sees they are surpassing us.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciaban2.0 View Post
    Your talking about invading Pakistan, the only reason the raid on his compound worked is because after years of searching we finally figured out where he was hiding.
    If we had entered Pakistan right away we would have been looking for him blindly, and I doubt the nuclearly armed Pakistani govt would have been OK with us romping around their country until we found him. On top of that there wasn't enough evidence (initially) that he went into Pakistan, not enough to justify invading a sovereign nation.

    What your suggesting wouldn't have
    A)worked
    or
    B)been legal.
    No, I'm talking about going into Pakistan, invading would be attacking Pakistani forces. We finally figured out where he was, but Pakistan knew for a long time before we found him. They were if not outright assisting Al-Qaeda/Osama/The Taliban they were at the very least accomplices by allowing them to cross into Pakistan to hideout.

    What I suggested would have:

    A) worked better than our current strategy

    and

    B) It's legality would have been irrelevant because much of what we did wasn't legal anyway.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciaban2.0 View Post
    not enough to justify invading a sovereign nation.

    What your suggesting wouldn't have
    A)worked
    or
    B)been legal.
    Sounds like standard US military..

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Interesting. So then why the war with Afghanistan? Taliban said if he actually did it they'll hand him over. So then why the war? Why not save all those money and lives?
    This is a common strategy by those who know they have committed a crime because what they're really after is the intelligence sources and methods we'd divulge by providing the evidence.

    The Taliban was very aware that Osama Bin Laden had a hand in planning 9/11. Even Osama himself was aware, since he flat out said on video that he did it. Unless you think that wasn't him on the tapes?

  8. #98
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    Imperialism is America's bread and butter. It would be a very different America if we lose it.
    A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom.

    Martin Luther King.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    This is a common strategy by those who know they have committed a crime because what they're really after is the intelligence sources and methods we'd divulge by providing the evidence.

    The Taliban was very aware that Osama Bin Laden had a hand in planning 9/11. Even Osama himself was aware, since he flat out said on video that he did it. Unless you think that wasn't him on the tapes?
    they were willing to do everything through a neutral third party. They were then willing to deal directly with the US.

    No, I dont think it was him on those tapes.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    they were willing to do everything through a neutral third party. They were then willing to deal directly with the US.

    No, I don't think it was him on those tapes.
    Why would Al-Qaeda and the Taliban say it was then?

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Why would Al-Qaeda and the Taliban say it was then?
    Who said that?

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    No, I'm talking about going into Pakistan, invading would be attacking Pakistani forces. We finally figured out where he was, but Pakistan knew for a long time before we found him. They were if not outright assisting Al-Qaeda/Osama/The Taliban they were at the very least accomplices by allowing them to cross into Pakistan to hideout.

    What I suggested would have:

    A) worked better than our current strategy

    and

    B) It's legality would have been irrelevant because much of what we did wasn't legal anyway.
    We didn't know where he was until around the time that we planned the mission and got him.

    NO, sending troops into another country is an act of war even if we don't engage in violence with their troops it's still an act of war.

    We didn't know where he was located back in like 2002 when we first went into Afganistan. We didn't know where he was, and Pakistan even if they were semi-complicit (which is kinda hard to say, idk if the govt was, or if it was just high powered people in the govt, at the very least it's complicated) they weren't giving him up, that's why it took us like 7 years of looking for him.
    So what do we do in the meantime?

    I don't think the invasion of Afganistan was wrong, but staying there for an additional decade after Osama died was unnecessary.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Who said that?
    https://www.theguardian.com/alqaida/...839823,00.html

    Zawahiri posted a video denying Bin Laden's death in 2005. In another tape Zawahiri says Al-Qaeda will continue their attacks on the Western World. In another video Zawahiri claims Bin Laden is still leading the Holy War against the West.

    Many of these videos were broadcast on Al-Jazeera who stated they look and sound like Bin Laden and they believe are genuine.

    https://www.france24.com/en/20110506...amist-websites

    Al-Qaeda also confirmed Bin Laden died in 2011.


    So Al-Qaeda believes Bin Laden both died in 2011 and committed 9/11. So why don't you?

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciaban2.0 View Post
    We didn't know where he was until around the time that we planned the mission and got him.

    NO, sending troops into another country is an act of war even if we don't engage in violence with their troops it's still an act of war.

    We didn't know where he was located back in like 2002 when we first went into Afghanistan. We didn't know where he was, and Pakistan even if they were semi-complicit (which is kinda hard to say, idk if the govt was, or if it was just high powered people in the govt, at the very least it's complicated) they weren't giving him up, that's why it took us like 7 years of looking for him.

    So what do we do in the meantime?

    I don't think the invasion of Afghanistan was wrong, but staying there for an additional decade after Osama died was unnecessary.
    I'm not suggesting we knew where exactly Bin Laden was in 2002, but we knew he had fled to Pakistan:

    https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/t...to%20outsiders.

    And as you say, Pakistan wasn't giving him up, hence the need to go and get him.

    So, sure you can call it an invasion. Russia invaded Georgia too, and then left after they accomplished their mission. In fact, I think just threatening Pakistan that we were going to go into the country if they didn't give up Bin Laden would have been enough.


    The point is we broke a ton of rules and then right when we could have got Bin Laden, suddenly we were very concerned with rules. Our mission was to get Bin Laden, we could have done that as early as 2002.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    https://www.theguardian.com/alqaida/...839823,00.html

    Zawahiri posted a video denying Bin Laden's death in 2005. In another tape Zawahiri says Al-Qaeda will continue their attacks on the Western World. In another video Zawahiri claims Bin Laden is still leading the Holy War against the West.

    Many of these videos were broadcast on Al-Jazeera who stated they look and sound like Bin Laden and they believe are genuine.

    https://www.france24.com/en/20110506...amist-websites

    Al-Qaeda also confirmed Bin Laden died in 2011.


    So Al-Qaeda believes Bin Laden both died in 2011 and committed 9/11. So why don't you?
    I dont know, maybe because without bin laden al qaeda has no influence, they want to keep their influence.

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    Last edited by nastynice; 04-14-2021 at 07:58 PM.
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

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