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  1. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by strahan92osi72 View Post
    I think you hit the nail on the head explaining Torres defense in another post. Heís a solid fielder as a 2B with the potential to be well
    Above average. SS tho, his ceiling is below average and right now heís just bad. The Yankees FO is actually doing his value an injustice by having him at SS.
    This is simply not accurate. To say that the "ceiling" is below average is incorrect. Ceiling means the best possible outcome if everything goes right. For Torres the ceiling is an above average SS defensively. The floor is what you are seeing in the first 10 games of the season but likely won't see for the rest of the season.

  2. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoba Rama View Post
    This is simply not accurate. To say that the "ceiling" is below average is incorrect. Ceiling means the best possible outcome if everything goes right. For Torres the ceiling is an above average SS defensively. The floor is what you are seeing in the first 10 games of the season but likely won't see for the rest of the season.
    You have to remember, Torres was touted because of his bat, not glove. He was an average 2B with the ceiling of becoming an above average 2B. But SS is different and harder, much harder. Right now heís not below average heís bad. And no I really donít see him even becoming adequate. To me he belongs at 2B but on this team we have DJ and not a true SS on the roster.

  3. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by strahan92osi72 View Post
    You have to remember, Torres was touted because of his bat, not glove. He was an average 2B with the ceiling of becoming an above average 2B. But SS is different and harder, much harder. Right now heís not below average heís bad. And no I really donít see him even becoming adequate. To me he belongs at 2B but on this team we have DJ and not a true SS on the roster.
    The only reason he is "bad" is because he is making errors. There is nothing wrong with him physically and he has the tools to be above average. As I said he will not continue making this many errors, I would take that to the bank.

  4. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoba Rama View Post
    The only reason he is "bad" is because he is making errors. There is nothing wrong with him physically and he has the tools to be above average. As I said he will not continue making this many errors, I would take that to the bank.
    Well yes errors make him bad, but to me I see no Upside to his fielding as a SS. He has underwhelming range and his arm is very bad, near the bottom of the league compared to other SSís. I hope youíre right as far as errors, because itís already cost the Yankees plenty of runs already.

  5. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by strahan92osi72 View Post
    Well yes errors make him bad, but to me I see no Upside to his fielding as a SS. He has underwhelming range and his arm is very bad, near the bottom of the league compared to other SSís. I hope youíre right as far as errors, because itís already cost the Yankees plenty of runs already.
    Here are some scouting reports that may make you feel a bit better about his future

    First one is BA:
    "Defensively, there's no reason Torres can't stick at shortstop, but the emergence of Didi Gregorius in New York necessitated that Torres learn other positions quickly. He shuffled around during his brief season, playing 15 games at third base and 10 more at second base before the injury. He has the above-average range and arm to play those positions or shortstop."

    Next is fox sports:
    "Defense (60) Ė Torres has tremendous hands at the position. He has seen his range decline some as he thickened in his lower half, but he still has such good hands that he projects as a shortstop."

    They rate his defense at short as a 60, which on the scouting scale is definitely above average.

  6. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoba Rama View Post
    Here are some scouting reports that may make you feel a bit better about his future

    First one is BA:
    "Defensively, there's no reason Torres can't stick at shortstop, but the emergence of Didi Gregorius in New York necessitated that Torres learn other positions quickly. He shuffled around during his brief season, playing 15 games at third base and 10 more at second base before the injury. He has the above-average range and arm to play those positions or shortstop."

    Next is fox sports:
    "Defense (60) Ė Torres has tremendous hands at the position. He has seen his range decline some as he thickened in his lower half, but he still has such good hands that he projects as a shortstop."

    They rate his defense at short as a 60, which on the scouting scale is definitely above average.
    I guess Iíll believe it when I see it.

  7. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by strahan92osi72 View Post
    I guess Iíll believe it when I see it.
    I can understand being in that camp. That being said successfully picking the winners requires projection and supposition. The I'll believe it when I see it mentality leads to only having overpriced options on your roster because once you've "seen it" it's gonna cost you a lot of money.

  8. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by strahan92osi72 View Post
    I think you hit the nail on the head explaining Torres defense in another post. Heís a solid fielder as a 2B with the potential to be well
    Above average. SS tho, his ceiling is below average and right now heís just bad. The Yankees FO is actually doing his value an injustice by having him at SS.
    Funny enough, in his last full season he produced a -11 DRS at 2B in 547 innings while putting up a -3 DRS at SS in 659 innings.

  9. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by strahan92osi72 View Post
    Blowing up to me is letting the game get away and not giving the team a chance to win while also not making it out of the 3rd. Iíll give you an example, Tanaka was really good on days he had his stuff but literally blew up when he didnít. I can recall a game at Fenway where he had 12 earned runs and couldnít get out of the 2nd inning. To me, thatís blowing up, one of many games Tanaka, very overrated in my eyes, blew up. Listen by no means was Monty good today, but I was watching him and can see he had nothing. I was watching the game with my brother in law and literally said Iíll sign up for 5 right now, and he lasted. If Monty had blown up, we wouldíve lost today.
    Well I just canít agree that Monty was gritty or should be applauded for making it through 5 innings . A healthy good pitcher should be expected to be able to get through 5 innings even on most bad days . And last I checked Monty is a good pitcher

  10. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Posada20 View Post
    Well I just canít agree that Monty was gritty or should be applauded for making it through 5 innings . A healthy good pitcher should be expected to be able to get through 5 innings even on most bad days . And last I checked Monty is a good pitcher
    No I agree Monty is a good pitcher which is why he was able to keep them in the game despite not having anything. If it was a bottom of the rotation type the game couldíve easily gotten away. That being said, heís not on someone like Cole, Degrom, or Scherzer level where they can still turn in a quality game when they have nothing. Ace type starters can do 6 innings 2 or 3runs when they have nothing, but to expect Monty to (remember heís good but not an ace) is a lot to ask.

  11. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by strahan92osi72 View Post
    No I agree Monty is a good pitcher which is why he was able to keep them in the game despite not having anything. If it was a bottom of the rotation type the game couldíve easily gotten away. That being said, heís not on someone like Cole, Degrom, or Scherzer level where they can still turn in a quality game when they have nothing. Ace type starters can do 6 innings 2 or 3runs when they have nothing, but to expect Monty to (remember heís good but not an ace) is a lot to ask.
    I said I expect Monty to make it through atleast 5 innings even on some of his worst days like today . I never I said I expect him to give up 3 runs or less all the time .

  12. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by dayners81 View Post
    Just my take on Torres for whatever its worth. If they choose to leave Torres at SS the rest of the yr he'll end up being about league average defensively but certainly not good.

    The part that concerns me is what the move has done to him offensively. If you look at his numbers since the moved hi full time to SS aren't great. When he was at 2nd he put up incredible numbers. If he continues not to hit while playing SS is it really worth taking a chance on damaging such a young, special talent? Torres calling card is always going to be his bat but when he was at 2nd he was atleast above average defensively IMO.

    If the kid spend the first half struggling at the plate while playing SS i think they will have to make some kind of adjustment before they start affecting his future

    I absolutely hope more than anything Torres proves me wrong but i don't think we'll see him play MLB AVG defense at SS and perform at the plate like he did in 18-19. I think its gotten in his head at this point and its affecting him at the plate. It would be a shame to ruin his as a player trying to shove a square peg in a round hole
    I fully agree. You can deal with average defense when the offense is clearly above average but Torres is looking average at both for last season and the very early start of this one.
    The fact that he showed up last year out of shape, is alarming. It's a Sanchezian work ethic. I wonder if Gleybar bought into his own hype?

    But the FO says Sanchez works very hard, Gleybar works very hard... Maybe stop protecting guys? If they don't work, let it be known. I don't like Stanton on the Yankees but his work ethic is fantastic. Same with Judge, Frazier, Hicks, Gardy, Gio, Voit...
    (I'm really glad to hear the reviews of Dominguez in that regard)

    Phoba believes Gleybar can be above average. There are 30 starting SS's in the league. If Gleybar is the 14th best defensively, that makes him above average, do I think he can be that? Sure. I just don't think he will ever be a good SS. I like to see the Yankees with a SS at least, in the top 10 defensively and preferably a lights out kind of player. I will gladly take the GG quality d and the average bat over the average D and good bat.



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  13. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinkotheclown View Post
    I fully agree. You can deal with average defense when the offense is clearly above average but Torres is looking average at both for last season and the very early start of this one.
    The fact that he showed up last year out of shape, is alarming. It's a Sanchezian work ethic. I wonder if Gleybar bought into his own hype?

    But the FO says Sanchez works very hard, Gleybar works very hard... Maybe stop protecting guys? If they don't work, let it be known. I don't like Stanton on the Yankees but his work ethic is fantastic. Same with Judge, Frazier, Hicks, Gardy, Gio, Voit...
    (I'm really glad to hear the reviews of Dominguez in that regard)

    Phoba believes Gleybar can be above average. There are 30 starting SS's in the league. If Gleybar is the 14th best defensively, that makes him above average, do I think he can be that? Sure. I just don't think he will ever be a good SS. I like to see the Yankees with a SS at least, in the top 10 defensively and preferably a lights out kind of player. I will gladly take the GG quality d and the average bat over the average D and good bat.
    I can understand that preference. Personally I'll take an average defensive shortstop if he can hit the lights out. I think Gleyber will hit the lights out. He's also (except last year) the type of hitter who the Yankees need, a contact hitter who can hit for high average. In the playoffs he is invaluable. That being said I don't think you're wrong for preferring a defense first guy who hits decent but not great. Obviously in a perfect world you have a guy who does both very well.

  14. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoba Rama View Post
    I can understand that preference. Personally I'll take an average defensive shortstop if he can hit the lights out. I think Gleyber will hit the lights out. He's also (except last year) the type of hitter who the Yankees need, a contact hitter who can hit for high average. In the playoffs he is invaluable. That being said I don't think you're wrong for preferring a defense first guy who hits decent but not great. Obviously in a perfect world you have a guy who does both very well.
    I absolutely understand your perspective as well, a great hitting SS who plays average-a bit above D is a fantastic piece.
    I hope he returns to offensive form. I think he can. He is a needed element to the lineup, like DJ and Gardner he is a guy who can shorten up and get the ball in play.

    In my ideal scenario, a year or two from now, Torres is the 2nd baseman and Peraza is SS with DJ at first.



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  15. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinkotheclown View Post
    I absolutely understand your perspective as well, a great hitting SS who plays average-a bit above D is a fantastic piece.
    I hope he returns to offensive form. I think he can. He is a needed element to the lineup, like DJ and Gardner he is a guy who can shorten up and get the ball in play.

    In my ideal scenario, a year or two from now, Torres is the 2nd baseman and Peraza is SS with DJ at first.
    If that is the case, that would be a very good thing as that would mean Peraza is awesome.

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