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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciaban2.0 View Post
    No, the goal is Equity, it means equal outcomes or outcomes which are positively beneficial towards outgroups that have suffered inequality in the past, so if this program causes black mortality to fall below white mortality, even if the only reason is because white mortality sky rockets, that's acceptable.
    This is how white grievance politics works. Being more concerned with the potential inequity white people might have to suffer than the actual inequity minorities currently suffer from.

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    This is how white grievance politics works. Being more concerned with the potential inequity white people might have to suffer than the actual inequity minorities currently suffer from.
    Nice post.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    This is how white grievance politics works. Being more concerned with the potential inequity white people might have to suffer than the actual inequity minorities currently suffer from.
    Exactly, that's why this program is so important, if we're going to even the outcomes, then SOME racial discrimination is necessary. So long as people who are performing racial discrimination have the right intentions, racism isn't a problem. I totally agree with this point that you're making.
    You can't just go around treating patients based on the seriousness of their illnesses or their needs in #CurrentYear

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciaban2.0 View Post
    Exactly, that's why this program is so important, if we're going to even the outcomes, then SOME racial discrimination is necessary. So long as people who are performing racial discrimination have the right intentions, racism isn't a problem. I totally agree with this point that you're making.
    You can't just go around treating patients based on the seriousness of their illnesses or their needs in #CurrentYear
    At least you're admitting there aren't even outcomes currently, and that's due to racial discrimination. Apparently the racial discrimination that negatively affects black people is completely fine, but God forbid there's racial discrimination that negatively affects white people.

    We can't just go around trying to stop racial discrimination against black people if it means that white people may be affected. #1860Year

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    white grievance politics .
    lmao! Good one.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    At least you're admitting there aren't even outcomes currently, and that's due to racial discrimination. Apparently the racial discrimination that negatively affects black people is completely fine, but God forbid there's racial discrimination that negatively affects white people.

    We can't just go around trying to stop racial discrimination against black people if it means that white people may be affected. #1860Year
    No, I don't think doctors and nurses are discriminating against people based on race, I haven't seen any evidence of that occuring.
    Different outcomes can be caused by all sorts of different reasons, intentional bigoted discrimination isn't necessary for disparate outcomes.
    For instance, is the NBA discriminating against Non-Black athletes? No of course not.

    So I take it you do support racial discrimination in this case as a means of creating equal outcomes.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciaban2.0 View Post
    No, I don't think doctors and nurses are discriminating against people based on race, I haven't seen any evidence of that.

    Different outcomes can be caused by all sorts of different reasons, intentional bigoted discrimination isn't necessary for disparate outcomes.

    For instance, is the NBA discriminating against Non-Black athletes? No of course not.
    I never said it was. I specifically did not use the word intentional for that very reason.

    But since you appear to agree that there is racial discrimination that is not intentional, what do you think we should do about it?

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    This is how white grievance politics works. Being more concerned with the potential inequity white people might have to suffer than the actual inequity minorities currently suffer from.
    You are one of the few posters here I will backtrack a few pages to follow an exchange. This is why. DAMN GOOD POST SON.
    A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom.

    Martin Luther King.

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by WES445 View Post
    You are one of the few posters here I will backtrack a few pages to follow an exchange. This is why. DAMN GOOD POST SON.
    Thank you for the kind words.

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I never said it was. I specifically did not use the word intentional for that very reason.

    But since you appear to agree that there is racial discrimination that is not intentional, what do you think we should do about it?
    No I don't agree that there is racial discrimination going on in medicine, bigotry intentional or not isn't necessary for disparities in outcomes.

    Also, you missed the last part in my quote there. So do you think racial discrimination is necessary to fix these disparities?

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciaban2.0 View Post
    No I don't agree that there is racial discrimination going on in medicine, bigotry intentional or not isn't necessary for disparities in outcomes.

    Also, you missed the last part in my quote there. So do you think racial discrimination is necessary to fix these disparities?
    Then what is your explanation for the fact that black people are less likely to be given pain medications and when done so are given less medication, including in the emergency room for fractures despite stating the same level of pain? Or that only 35% of minorities receive the appropriate pain medication for cancer treatment compared to 50% of white patients?

    You think that has anything to do with the fact that 73% of medical students in a study falsely believed black people had a higher pain tolerance than white people?


    https://www.pnas.org/content/113/16/4296


    So to answer your question: do I think itís necessary to fix these disparities? Itís not the only way we can fix them, but it is necessary at the moment so long as people do not believe that the system is biased against minorities. If you refuse to fix the throughput, the only other thing we can fix is the output.

  12. #117
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    Just to clarify for people who are against outcome based policies ... we already have them all over the place. In sports the team that does the best gets the worst draft position. The people who make the most have to pay the highest percentage of taxes (supposedly).

    I don't think it's reasonable to "force" equal results over groupings since even in a fully equal system in all ways (not possible) there will still be some natural variance. But I think putting a finger on the scale here or there makes some sense.

    Sponsor early education STEM programs that focus on and are cheaper to free for women/poor people/minorities. Set it up to run for a decade and see what the results are then adjust. We need to focus on the next generations.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Then what is your explanation for the fact that black people are less likely to be given pain medications and when done so are given less medication, including in the emergency room for fractures despite stating the same level of pain? Or that only 35% of minorities receive the appropriate pain medication for cancer treatment compared to 50% of white patients?

    You think that has anything to do with the fact that 73% of medical students in a study falsely believed black people had a higher pain tolerance than white people?


    https://www.pnas.org/content/113/16/4296


    So to answer your question: do I think itís necessary to fix these disparities? Itís not the only way we can fix them, but it is necessary at the moment so long as people do not believe that the system is biased against minorities. If you refuse to fix the throughput, the only other thing we can fix is the output.
    It has always baffled me that medical professionals get such fundamental things wrong. Huge amounts of education and they still get less than 50% right overall is just crazy to me. The same disparities exist across many groupings ... women and men as well as races. It seems computers should help equalize these things but people don't really rely on asking a computer when they think they know the right answer already.

    I wonder how much of the issue is simple money ... creating different drugs optimized to each sub-group would be better for the people but cost a lot more so it makes "sense" that we would end up with a compromise in medicine.

    On the pain scale thing, I understand the need for it, but I've always felt it was an odd system. I have a very high pain threshold but have also been done spectacularly dangerous things that have gone wrong, so my "10" has moved up several times in my life. I had a motorcycle taken out from beneath me and went head first through a windshield that then panic stopped (after they hit me) and launched me back onto the road and ended up with a shattered vertebrae ... after 3 hours on a back board moving was the most painful thing I'd ever experienced. That event made a dislocated toe go from a 7 on the pain scale to a relative 3. I also don't particularly use pain meds so my tolerance is probably generally lower than others. A simple 1-10 pain scale is a pretty crude measure. I think there are some external measures for pain but I don't know how accurate they are either and I suspect they are CONSIDERABLY more expensive than asking "how much does it hurt?"

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Then what is your explanation for the fact that black people are less likely to be given pain medications and when done so are given less medication, including in the emergency room for fractures despite stating the same level of pain? Or that only 35% of minorities receive the appropriate pain medication for cancer treatment compared to 50% of white patients?

    You think that has anything to do with the fact that 73% of medical students in a study falsely believed black people had a higher pain tolerance than white people?


    https://www.pnas.org/content/113/16/4296


    So to answer your question: do I think itís necessary to fix these disparities? Itís not the only way we can fix them, but it is necessary at the moment so long as people do not believe that the system is biased against minorities. If you refuse to fix the throughput, the only other thing we can fix is the output.
    1) The Medical industry as a whole is far more reluctant to give out pain medication since most of it is opioid-based, they've done a total 180-degree turn from the 90's when they were handing that **** out like Trick Or Treat Candy.
    Doctors can lose their license and be charged criminally if they're not careful about handing out drugs especially opioids my guess is that if you were to examine the hospitals this probably occurs in area's that are low SES, and have drug problems in the community.
    The key would be to examine similar SES communities with similar drug problems (Kentuky for instance) and see if they have higher rates of pain med prescription.

    2)
    You think that has anything to do with the fact that 73% of medical students in a study falsely believed black people had a higher pain tolerance than white people?
    This isn't bigotry it's bad medical information, better education is the solution to this kind of problem.

    3)
    Itís not the only way we can fix them, but it is necessary at the moment so long as people do not believe that the system is biased against minorities.
    So formal medical discrimination is both necessary in this case and unnecessary to create equal outcomes?
    Alright, than as a follow up, how do you get around the Civil Rights act which federally prevents this type of stuff?

    ***Side Note***
    I've never seen the word throughput, at first I thought it was a typo.

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciaban2.0 View Post
    1) The Medical industry as a whole is far more reluctant to give out pain medication since most of it is opioid-based, they've done a total 180-degree turn from the 90's when they were handing that **** out like Trick Or Treat Candy.
    Doctors can lose their license and be charged criminally if they're not careful about handing out drugs especially opioids my guess is that if you were to examine the hospitals this probably occurs in area's that are low SES, and have drug problems in the community.
    The key would be to examine similar SES communities with similar drug problems (Kentuky for instance) and see if they have higher rates of pain med prescription.

    2)

    This isn't bigotry it's bad medical information, better education is the solution to this kind of problem.

    3)

    So formal medical discrimination is both necessary in this case and unnecessary to create equal outcomes?
    Alright, than as a follow up, how do you get around the Civil Rights act which federally prevents this type of stuff?

    ***Side Note***
    I've never seen the word throughput, at first I thought it was a typo.
    1) Itís not just opioids, itís all pain medications, including medication for cancer patients. Doesnít matter the medication type, theyíre less likely to give it.

    2) bad Medical education? Itís not like they were erroneously taught this at medical school. Itís unconscious bias. We also see this phenomenon where black children are perceived as older than they are and are give harsher punishments than white children.

    3) Something can be unnecessary until certain factors and then become necessary. It is not necessary to use the stairs at the mall when thereís also an escalator, but when the escalator breaks the stairs become necessary.


    The problem with your plausible explanations is that they happen across too many fields to be explained. Thereís the medical disparity I mentioned above. Then thereís the fact black people are less likely to be given a loan or the same interest rates with the same financials as white people. Thereís the fact that black people are less likely to be approved for a house, and when selling their property is valued below market rate comparative to white people. Thereís the disparities in the criminal justice system. Thereís disparities in college admissions and hiring of resumes despite studies having identical credentials.

    It becomes much harder to believe your ďmaybe itís some other explanationĒ when it happens across literally every industry.

    The solutions to this problem will become more extreme as the denials become more fantastical.

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