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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    This is a big part of it, Boston is a cautionary tale of being too conservative at the GM level.
    Meh, over dramatization of ďmissed on KawhiĒ. Thatís the only move I think being too conservative cost them.

  2. #47
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    Ainge is a lightening rod for criticism because heís an *******. I get it. He definitely hasnít been perfect. But letís be real about why Boston hasnít won a title. Itís because to win a title you need a top 20-30 of all time player.

    Over the last 13 years Boston has been to 6 conference finals. Basically half. And included within that stretch was a complete tear down and build back up, so overall very impressive results.

    1 of those times they went on to win it all. The next time they lost a game 7 to Kobe, top 10 player all time. Next 3 they lost to Lebron, arguable GOAT. Last years loss vs Miami was bad.

    In terms of acquiring star talent, heís done it through the draft (Tatum, Brown, Rondo), trades (Ray, KG, Kyrie, Isaiah) and free agency (Horford, Hayward, Kemba).

    I think Ainge is too reluctant to part with late picks for role players because heís more concerned with flexibility for stars. I think heís struggled to find the right veteran fits in free agency, though to be fair Boston usually isnít going to be a top destination for role players whoíd usually rather sign with Lebron/Giannis type teams. I think Ainge drafts for floor over ceiling to a detriment (though everyone focuses on the ceilings that hit without always properly understanding that thereís busts for the booms).

    Lots of valid criticisms of Ainge. But big picture of you ask me why he hasnít won more titles, to me itís very clearly because heís gotten stars but not the Lebron/Wade/Curry/Durant/Duncan/Kobe type of stars outside of when he got KG.

    I think Kawhi is the one opportunity he missed for that. Other than that, I think heís been pretty spot on with all the big picture stuff.

  3. #48
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    wasn't the rumor he was basically waiting on AD to become available, but then AD basically said he was only going to the Lakers?

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    Ainge is a lightening rod for criticism because heís an *******. I get it. He definitely hasnít been perfect. But letís be real about why Boston hasnít won a title. Itís because to win a title you need a top 20-30 of all time player.

    Over the last 13 years Boston has been to 6 conference finals. Basically half. And included within that stretch was a complete tear down and build back up, so overall very impressive results.

    1 of those times they went on to win it all. The next time they lost a game 7 to Kobe, top 10 player all time. Next 3 they lost to Lebron, arguable GOAT. Last years loss vs Miami was bad.

    In terms of acquiring star talent, heís done it through the draft (Tatum, Brown, Rondo), trades (Ray, KG, Kyrie, Isaiah) and free agency (Horford, Hayward, Kemba).

    I think Ainge is too reluctant to part with late picks for role players because heís more concerned with flexibility for stars. I think heís struggled to find the right veteran fits in free agency, though to be fair Boston usually isnít going to be a top destination for role players whoíd usually rather sign with Lebron/Giannis type teams. I think Ainge drafts for floor over ceiling to a detriment (though everyone focuses on the ceilings that hit without always properly understanding that thereís busts for the booms).

    Lots of valid criticisms of Ainge. But big picture of you ask me why he hasnít won more titles, to me itís very clearly because heís gotten stars but not the Lebron/Wade/Curry/Durant/Duncan/Kobe type of stars outside of when he got KG.

    I think Kawhi is the one opportunity he missed for that. Other than that, I think heís been pretty spot on with all the big picture stuff.
    Perfectly stated

    City of Champions

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    The fact is the Celtics have made 11 1st round draft picks in the past 5 years. They've been in discussions to trade for Butler, Paul George, AD, Kawhi, and Harden. It'd be very difficult to convince me it was better to not trade for a single one of those players.

    Boston had enough assets, they could have traded for any one of those players. I just don't buy anyone who looks at the current Celtics and goes "yeah, we did everything right the last 5 years to get here".
    Youíre making BIG assumptions that we could have even landed these players. And again - what good is it to trade your entire chest for an AD and have him leave a year later. Or a Harden and have him sulk and show up fat because he doesnít want to be there. Butler and PG would be nice - but it wouldíve cost Tatum or Brown and I donít think they win us a championship. The only valid claim is Kawhi. Who wasnít without risk at the time. Obviously hindsight we can say with almost certainty it probable would have been a very good move for at least 1 year

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddletramp View Post
    Yeah, but Oakmont has an excuse for EVERYTHING. Iím starting to think that heís Ainge himself. Itís just so funny to me that he ripped the Nets off so hard yet 10ish years later and the Nets are way past the Celtics (even Oakmont admits the Celtics top guys arenít on Brooklynís level even before Harden showed up and the Nets bench is better even after Boston had that many first rounders).

    We kept hearing how great Ainge is/was up until about a few months ago. Now, itís just excuse after excuse.
    Name me 5 GMís that have acquired the talent Ainge has in the last 15 years... Iíll wait. If you canít - that means heís at minimum top 5 in talent acquisition- therefore proving the overrated claim false.

    Minimum - 1 HOF, 6+ All Stars, 2 All Star draft picks - resulting in at least 1 title or 6+ Conference finals.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    Absolutely true. However... it's also clearly been reported that 1 of 4 things were true:
    1) Charlotte upped the bid once they knew Indy was in play
    2) Hayward did not think Boston would be able to come up with a REALISTIC trade package and didn't want Charlotte's offer to disappear
    3) Indy was used as leverage
    4) Some combination of the previous 3

    My comments were based on bullet 2. I do thoroughly believe they said forget it because of such an outlandish trade rebuttal request by Ainge. Too far apart and a closing window forced Hayward's hand.


    Again, it's true that Kemba is just plain better than Rozier when 100% healthy. These two are also true:
    1)Kemba is not 100% healthy and his injury seems to be debilitating with no chance to improve. Could this have been exasperated by Ainge pushing thru a deal not wanted to get left empty handed?
    2)Kemba is paid nearly DOUBLE the price of Rozier ($34.4M vs. $18.9M). That's almost the cost of both Rozier + Turner. Although some will call this hindsight, given the age and injury history of all players discussed, I believe we can almost call it fact that the Celtics would be better from a wins & cap management both right now & future if they could exchange Thompson & Walker for Turner & Rozier? Can we at least agree on as much?
    If your opinion is option 2 is what happened then youíre welcome to it. I disagree. I think itís partially true, but the other bullet points absolutely played a role.

    Your second point is absolutely hind sight. As I stated before I was 100% on the Rozier over Irving bandwagon. But at that time Rozier was no sure bet. Kemba was a legitimate All Star to replace an All Star. If the argument is that Ainge is too conservative - you canít argue that he should have taken the relatively unknown to replace an All Star over replacing the All Star with an All Star. Kemba unfortunately has legitimate injury concerns that could not be foreseen to this extent at the time. It didnít work out - but that doesnít mean the move was bad at the time.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    Youíre making BIG assumptions that we could have even landed these players. And again - what good is it to trade your entire chest for an AD and have him leave a year later. Or a Harden and have him sulk and show up fat because he doesnít want to be there. Butler and PG would be nice - but it wouldíve cost Tatum or Brown and I donít think they win us a championship. The only valid claim is Kawhi. Who wasnít without risk at the time. Obviously hindsight we can say with almost certainty it probable would have been a very good move for at least 1 year
    They already traded assets for a guy who walked: Kyrie. When you have a chance to create a super team, you take it.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    Name me 5 GMís that have acquired the talent Ainge has in the last 15 years... Iíll wait. If you canít - that means heís at minimum top 5 in talent acquisition- therefore proving the overrated claim false.

    Minimum - 1 HOF, 6+ All Stars, 2 All Star draft picks - resulting in at least 1 title or 6+ Conference finals.
    Everyone agrees he did very good with the KG/Ray Allen deals and then dealing KG and Pierce to the Nets. But how does your list look after those deals?

    I think with all the assets he had after the KG and Pierce deals, more than 5 GMs could have done a better job turning those assets into championships.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post

    The number of draft picks is irrelevant. Itís not like heís taking 4 top draft picks a year. He made 3 top 6 picks in Tatum/Brown/Smart... the rest have been middle/late firsts and second round picks. I donít see what that has to do with being conservative. How many teams around the league trade draft picks like cards and get nowhere. Half the league is barron on picks and arenít anywhere near title contention. Itís just not a measure of success or aggressiveness by any standard..
    This is an extremely lazy take.

    Celtics drafting 15 first round picks in the past 7 drafts is the exact definition of being conservative.

    Let's look at the going rate for star players in the league recently.

    AD - 3 first round picks, plus first round pick swaps

    Jrue - 3 first round picks (one of these was draft rights), plus first round pick swaps

    Harden - 3 first round picks and 4 first round pick swaps

    Kawhi - 1 first round pick

    Paul George to the Thunder - 0 picks

    Paul George to the Clippers - 5 first round picks, plus pick swaps

    Jimmy Butler to the Wolves - 1 first round pick (draft rights)

    Jimmy Butler to the 76ers - 1 second round pick

    Jimmy Butler to the Heat - 1 first round pick

    Westbrook to the Rockets - 2 first round picks, plus pick swaps

    Westbrook to the Wizards - 1 first round pick

    Anyway, you get the point. Danny sitting on his hands and just drafting guys is conservative, he's not capitalizing on assets. As soon as that draft pick is selected, it loses its value. It's similar to driving a new car off the lot.

    So yes, the number of draft picks over that span is extremely relevant and ties directly to the conservative/aggressive meter.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    Name me 5 GMís that have acquired the talent Ainge has in the last 15 years... Iíll wait. If you canít - that means heís at minimum top 5 in talent acquisition- therefore proving the overrated claim false.

    Minimum - 1 HOF, 6+ All Stars, 2 All Star draft picks - resulting in at least 1 title or 6+ Conference finals.
    Not only this:

    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Everyone agrees he did very good with the KG/Ray Allen deals and then dealing KG and Pierce to the Nets. But how does your list look after those deals?

    I think with all the assets he had after the KG and Pierce deals, more than 5 GMs could have done a better job turning those assets into championships.
    But also, he had A LOT of help with those first trades what with his old buddy McHale giving him a deal after McHale couldnít build a winning team to save his life and Garnett was finally willing to be moved because of it. And it was Presti who was desperate to move the expensive Ray Allen to help with the Sonics rebuild.

    And of course Billy King had to do something drastic to appease Prokharov who wanted to win now at the expense of the teamís future. After a few good (not great) years, the Nets got awful again and Ainge really only got Tatum and Brown for it.

    So Ainge was really the recipient of some lopsided trades from desperate (in one way or another) trade partners.

    I donít think this would be that big of a deal but every time the Celtics go on a run or sign/trade for a good player, we all keep getting passive-aggressively assailed with how underrated Ainge is.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    Ainge is a lightening rod for criticism because heís an *******. I get it. He definitely hasnít been perfect. But letís be real about why Boston hasnít won a title. Itís because to win a title you need a top 20-30 of all time player.

    Over the last 13 years Boston has been to 6 conference finals. Basically half. And included within that stretch was a complete tear down and build back up, so overall very impressive results.

    1 of those times they went on to win it all. The next time they lost a game 7 to Kobe, top 10 player all time. Next 3 they lost to Lebron, arguable GOAT. Last years loss vs Miami was bad.

    In terms of acquiring star talent, heís done it through the draft (Tatum, Brown, Rondo), trades (Ray, KG, Kyrie, Isaiah) and free agency (Horford, Hayward, Kemba).

    I think Ainge is too reluctant to part with late picks for role players because heís more concerned with flexibility for stars. I think heís struggled to find the right veteran fits in free agency, though to be fair Boston usually isnít going to be a top destination for role players whoíd usually rather sign with Lebron/Giannis type teams. I think Ainge drafts for floor over ceiling to a detriment (though everyone focuses on the ceilings that hit without always properly understanding that thereís busts for the booms).

    Lots of valid criticisms of Ainge. But big picture of you ask me why he hasnít won more titles, to me itís very clearly because heís gotten stars but not the Lebron/Wade/Curry/Durant/Duncan/Kobe type of stars outside of when he got KG.

    I think Kawhi is the one opportunity he missed for that. Other than that, I think heís been pretty spot on with all the big picture stuff.
    Harden and Butler would have def put you guys over the hump... KL of course is massive but harden was out there and the rockets owner would have jerked off trading him to a sixers rival. Harden on the celtics gives your team a legit shot and it was stupid of the heat/celtics whomever to not go in for it... the sixers tried and the owner was an ***. Heat refused to give up overrated herro and the celtics were never even in discussions.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Everyone agrees he did very good with the KG/Ray Allen deals and then dealing KG and Pierce to the Nets. But how does your list look after those deals?

    I think with all the assets he had after the KG and Pierce deals, more than 5 GMs could have done a better job turning those assets into championships.
    this.

  14. #59
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    They don't try hard on D this year. Marcus needs to go

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
    One More Time

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    They already traded assets for a guy who walked: Kyrie. When you have a chance to create a super team, you take it.
    So youíre advocating they compound a mistake? Right. Iím sure thatís a great way forward.

    City of Champions

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