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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    But when you say 'their workers' are you referring to big companies? Or all employers?
    And my gawd, again with the I 'don't think we should do anything' BS?!
    No, Iím not referring to all employers. Iím referring to large corporations.

    Iíve asked you numerous times now what you think we should do. What do you think we should do?

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    No, Iím not referring to all employers. Iím referring to large corporations.

    Iíve asked you numerous times now what you think we should do. What do you think we should do?
    How many times do I need to say the minimum wage needs serious adjusting?

    But you can't mandate a large corporation have higher wages than other employers.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    How many times do I need to say the minimum wage needs serious adjusting?

    But you can't mandate a large corporation have higher wages than other employers.
    I think the problem is much larger and deeper than just the minimum wage. The few have taken over everything in a way that has destroyed the middle class and small businesses.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I think the problem is much larger and deeper than just the minimum wage. The few have taken over everything in a way that has destroyed the middle class and small businesses.
    I don't know that you can blame large corporations for the ever-increasing division between haves and have nots.
    But you also can't mandate they pay higher wages than other employers or...who goes to work for other employers?
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    How many times do I need to say the minimum wage needs serious adjusting?

    But you can't mandate a large corporation have higher wages than other employers.
    Def a sticky situation.

    IMO we should set rules in place which basically decrease return on investment the larger a company gets. This would be great for the middle class and small business.

    On a global level it can hurt us, but I think our foreign relations need to be completely overhauled anyways. And I believe there are ways to keep companies as competitors in the domestic market while allies in the foreign market.

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  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    I don't know that you can blame large corporations for the ever-increasing division between haves and have nots.

    But you also can't mandate they pay higher wages than other employers or...who goes to work for other employers?
    I can. I don't think most people have any conception of how shady large corporations are and what they do to get ahead. Did you know that General Motors would buy up public transportation infrastructure to get it shut down so that people would have no alternative means of transportation and be forced to buy more cars? Or that Exxon Mobil and other oil companies have privately acknowledged Climate Change is real for 50 years while publicly denying it and funding research discrediting it? Or how Purdue Pharmaceuticals paid massive fines for lying about how addictive Oxycontin is to Doctors to encourage them to prescribe it to patients (near single handedly starting the current opioid epidemic), Or that a Wal-Mart in Quebec, Canada voted to unionize and Wal-Mart shut the store down almost immediately after, and the Canadian Supreme Court ruled what they did was illegal to stop unionization?

    And that's the very tip of the iceberg. These large corporations lie, cheat, steal, and engage in all manner of unethical and immoral behavior and then people assume the reason they are so big is they were just smarter or worked harder than everyone else.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I can. I don't think most people have any conception of how shady large corporations are and what they do to get ahead. Did you know that General Motors would buy up public transportation infrastructure to get it shut down so that people would have no alternative means of transportation and be forced to buy more cars? Or that Exxon Mobil and other oil companies have privately acknowledged Climate Change is real for 50 years while publicly denying it and funding research discrediting it? Or how Purdue Pharmaceuticals paid massive fines for lying about how addictive Oxycontin is to Doctors to encourage them to prescribe it to patients (near single handedly starting the current opioid epidemic), Or that a Wal-Mart in Quebec, Canada voted to unionize and Wal-Mart shut the store down almost immediately after, and the Canadian Supreme Court ruled what they did was illegal to stop unionization?

    And that's the very tip of the iceberg. These large corporations lie, cheat, steal, and engage in all manner of unethical and immoral behavior and then people assume the reason they are so big is they were just smarter or worked harder than everyone else.
    This is America. This is the basis of all business in this country.

    Did you know media stations are no diff than these corporations from other industries?

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    This is America. This is the basis of all business in this country.

    Did you know media stations are no diff than these corporations from other industries?
    I'm aware. But that's the point. There's a difference between a large corporation and a communist government.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    I think you guys are misconstruing my comments. You guys are talking from a hypothetical, never going to happen, standpoint that we and workers in general will EVER have the dominant say in the conversation....while I am pointing out that businesses will always have not only A say, but a dominant say. How wrong that is depends on your perspective and I've just pointed out some things from a business perspective. But I have NEVER said or even suggested that only people who own or run businesses should have a say. I mean this is how unionization started, yes? So workers have more say? Well, we can't nor shouldn't unionize every job.

    I've been underpaid, for one reason or another, most of my career....so I certainly don't bemoan people for wanting better pay. I should be able to be thinking retirement at this point, but financially that's simply not possible because lower pay during my career snowballs into lower social security benefits, too.
    Germany I believe requires more workers nominated people on their boards than those of shareholders, etc.

    I would love to work in Germany, seems like they have fantastic benefits and worker rights.


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  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I think youíre trying to obfuscate the issue by demanding exact specificity to a generalized sentiment because you know youíre totally pro-big business here and want to save face.

    I used $7B figure because thatís what Amazon made extra during the pandemic, and it wasnít to illustrate a hard a fast rule but to demonstrate that they are an extreme and at the very least this concept applies to them.

    I donít want a black and white position from you, youíve already said youíve agreed with me. But then you keep arguing against what you said you agreed with.

    If you want exact dollar amounts, go argue with special, Iím not debating such disingenuousness.

    Simply, do you think that Amazon should be paying their employees more than they do considering how much they make relative to how little they pay, or donít you?
    I took your position to be that you felt these should be rules for all companies not just a couple so if you want me to agree I need to understand what you are proposing. Discussing the idea is not disagreeing, it's discussion.

    Okay, so now it's a different question. Before it was could they pay more and the answer was a clear yes. Should they pay more? I don't know. What does the average warehouse order picker get paid? What is the top pay for a warehouse order picker? Does Amazon pay them less? The same? More? What level of training does it take to be an Amazon order picker vs the average warehouse order picker?

    I think Amazon should be on the higher end of the spectrum (but since I don't know where they are I can't say they should pay more than they currently pay) but it seems to me the amount they pay isn't the biggest issue. The stories I've heard from people who work for them are much like the stories I have from working for UPS 30 years ago ... there is huge pressure to be moving so constantly and so fast that it seems almost inhuman and the work is body breaking and soul crushing. I wonder if the employees were asked if they'd rather get 10% more per hour or have 10% lower performance standards which one they would choose. In my case I would rather have had lower demands.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I think the problem is much larger and deeper than just the minimum wage. The few have taken over everything in a way that has destroyed the middle class and small businesses.
    I think step one of reforming the system is getting money out of politics and I have no idea how we can do that.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Hereís some more context:

    A significant portion of tax cuts for businesses went to pay bonuses to the top level CEOís:

    https://theintercept.com/2021/03/30/...ts-executives/

    The wealthy are also hiding more of their wealth to avoid taxes than we knew about:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.was...outputType=amp

    And corporations used the money from Trumpís overseas repatriation effort to do stock buybacks rather than invest or increase wages:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.for...nvestment/amp/


    How much more of them bending us over are we going to take?
    By "them" do you mean our legislators? How do you think we can get the money/power incentives away from our elected and appointed officials?

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Yes they are two different things. If you think they should be paying them more and they are not, how do you plan to get them to pay more?

    As to your questions, I believe thereís a lot more we could be doing legally to ensure higher wages and more money goes to the working class yes.



    Why do you and Dbroncismo keep disingenuously portraying it as we are demanding all employees be rich?

    Who ever said anything about McDonaldís employees should be able to buy upscale houses? Are you under the delusion that $15 an hour can buy you an upscale house?

    This is the mentality Iím talking about. Acting like any advocacy for higher wages is tantamount t to demanding extreme wealth. Itís a way to frame the debate as itís the people wanting $15 an hour being greedy as opposed to the companies and people worth hundreds of billions.
    I took his comment to by hyperbole not an actual portrayal.

    The implication is that the only way to "fix" things is to get people at the bottom paid more money.

    To me at least the solution is FAR more complicated than that.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    ďWhy are the middle class and the American worker getting screwed?Ē ask the people who are arguing against the American worker in favor of the wealthiest men and companies on earth...
    And what confuses me is that you put me in that group when I don't think I've said anything in favor of "the wealthiest men and companies on earth".

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I believe in American exceptionalism, specifically that we are exceptional enough to figure out how to make our working class the highest paid. Pity you donít think weíre smart enough to figure it out.
    Make our working class the highest paid class in the US or the highest paid working class in the world? How do you define "working class"? Are you talking just unskilled or just blue collar or is the divide by income below some number?

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