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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    Which is Wentz, which is Jimmy G?

    Yards/Game
    A. 245
    B. 247

    TD/Game
    A. 1.53
    B. 1.66

    INT/Game
    A. .54
    B. .74

    Fumbles
    A. .57
    B. .85

    I'm thinking there should be at the very least some thought...not without hesitation...
    What are your arbitrary timeframes with these?

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by manbearchef View Post
    My bad, I read your other post as "Jimmy is top 10" rather than "Jimmy is better than 10 other QBs." I have no qualms with someone calling him a top 22 QB.

    As for the arguments, I've literally pointed out several things in addition to listing names. He has had good weapons despite people suggesting otherwise (Kittle, Deebo, Sanders, and a nasty run game), he's got an easy going offense that let's him hand the ball off and is full of easy throws that result in tons of YAC (see: 2400 YAC yards in his only good season), he's had good OLs (even in their worst years they're average), and he's got a quality defense that rarely let's the score get away to the point where they have to abandon their game manager plan.

    Them winning games in 2017 after his trade says more about how their opponents got easier and their roster started clicking for a rookie HC. They lost 4 games by less than 3 points BEFORE getting him, they won their first game with a total scrub at QB, and they beat no good teams in their 5 games with Jimmy. He had 7 total TDs and 5 INTs in his 5 starts, which is pretty similar to his career of averaging an INT/game. Win% is not an individual stat.

    Guys like Wentz and Cam would kill to have the offenses he's had, guys like Staff and Ryan have done far more with similar offenses, and guys like Baker look no worse with similar offenses. Cam and Ryan are former MVPs who took their teams to SB appearances (and didn't just hand the ball off to get there), Wentz was well on his way to MVP in 2017, Stafford has had several seasons better than Jimmy's best.

    I don't think anyone hates Jimmy (maybe 49ers fans, idk). He's so irrelevant and mediocre that he's not worth hating.
    You're last sentence is spot on.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    In their current situations - yes Wentz. If Jimmy was in a better system suited for his skill set - like NE, Id rather have Jimmy.

    Jimmy has a higher floor. Less TO prone. More of a game manager.

    Wentz has the higher ceiling. More likely to make big plays and put up numbers.
    That's fair.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    What are your arbitrary timeframes with these?
    Literally Career stats as the starter (49ers/Eagles)
    Last edited by Oakmont_4; 03-31-2021 at 06:43 PM.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by manbearchef View Post
    My bad, I read your other post as "Jimmy is top 10" rather than "Jimmy is better than 10 other QBs." I have no qualms with someone calling him a top 22 QB.

    As for the arguments, I've literally pointed out several things in addition to listing names. He has had good weapons despite people suggesting otherwise (Kittle, Deebo, Sanders, and a nasty run game), he's got an easy going offense that let's him hand the ball off and is full of easy throws that result in tons of YAC (see: 2400 YAC yards in his only good season), he's had good OLs (even in their worst years they're average), and he's got a quality defense that rarely let's the score get away to the point where they have to abandon their game manager plan.

    Them winning games in 2017 after his trade says more about how their opponents got easier and their roster started clicking for a rookie HC. They lost 4 games by less than 3 points BEFORE getting him, they won their first game with a total scrub at QB, and they beat no good teams in their 5 games with Jimmy. He had 7 total TDs and 5 INTs in his 5 starts, which is pretty similar to his career of averaging an INT/game. Win% is not an individual stat.

    Guys like Wentz and Cam would kill to have the offenses he's had, guys like Staff and Ryan have done far more with similar offenses, and guys like Baker look no worse with similar offenses. Cam and Ryan are former MVPs who took their teams to SB appearances (and didn't just hand the ball off to get there), Wentz was well on his way to MVP in 2017, Stafford has had several seasons better than Jimmy's best.

    I don't think anyone hates Jimmy (maybe 49ers fans, idk). He's so irrelevant and mediocre that he's not worth hating.
    Youre over inflating whats been around Jimmy so badly.

    Emmanuel Sanders was legitimately there for 9 games.

    Deebo has played a total of 16 games over 2 seasons. His rookie season (7 games) was nothing special. Last season he flashed at the middle/end of the season - but he played legitimately 3 games with Jimmy (weeks 5-7) 13 catches, 150 yards, 1 TD.

    Kittle, again, real nice player. Injured most of last season. But 2 seasons prior played very well. Targeted a TON because the team has no other WRs.

    SF defensive rank
    2020 - 17th
    2019 - 1st
    2018 - 26th
    2017 - 22nd

    The running game is a product of the system, not the talent. Weve seen this everywhere a Shannahans been.

    None of these guys come close to the talent that Stafford and Ryan have had over the years. And I dont get where Cam comes in here? In Carolina Cam ALWAYS had a legitimate run game behind him.

    YAC - again, crazy way to grade a QB. Herbert had 2300 YAC yards last season. Does that mean hes a product of the great WRs he has?
    Last edited by Oakmont_4; 03-31-2021 at 06:41 PM.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    You're last sentence is spot on.
    Didnt you say he was awful? Now you say its spot on that hes mediocre. Which is it?

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    Didnt you say he was awful? Now you say its spot on that hes mediocre. Which is it?
    Hes a bottom 5 guy, you choose the adjective.

  8. #83
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    [Hannable] Robert Kraft asked about QB position: "I think in fairness to Cam [Newton], I am not sure he had the proper weapons around him last year and then he got COVID and there were a lot of things that happened." Added he doesn't believe Jarrett Stidham has gotten a real shot yet.
    Dak: 17,634 @ 66.0%, 7.7 per att, 106+24 TD, 40 INT+34 FMB, 97.3 Rate
    Wentz: 16,811 @ 62.7%, 6.7 per att, 113+8 TD, 50 INT+58 FMB, 89.2 Rate

    Quote Originally Posted by manbearchef View Post
    I'll eat a shoe if BB is still coaching in 5 years.
    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    Sticking to traditions:

    IF Wentz is a Philadelphia Eagle in 2021, he will be the starter. If not, bye bye PSD, I'll leave.
    "Hater" is a term used by weak minded people in the face of legitimate criticism.
    -Scott van Pelt

  9. #84
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    Bored so I thought I'd go back and expose even more how badly you misrepresent Jimmy's situation in SF

    Quote Originally Posted by manbearchef View Post
    As for the arguments, I've literally pointed out several things in addition to listing names. He has had good weapons despite people suggesting otherwise (Kittle, Deebo, Sanders, and a nasty run game), he's got an easy going offense that let's him hand the ball off and is full of easy throws that result in tons of YAC (see: 2400 YAC yards in his only good season), he's had good OLs (even in their worst years they're average), and he's got a quality defense that rarely let's the score get away to the point where they have to abandon their game manager plan.
    2017/18 (last 5 games of 17, first 3 games of 18 before season ending injury - ACL"

    Record: 6-2
    Stats: 2278 passing yards, 12TDs, 8INT (That's pace for 4556 yards, 24TDs, 16INT) well above league average.

    Mind you, here were his top WR's
    Trent Taylor
    Pierre Garcon
    Dante Pettis
    Marquis Goodwin

    RB's
    Matt Brieda
    Alfred Morris
    Kyle Jusczyk

    TE
    George Kittle

    This WR cast is a JOKE. Awful by any standard. Yet Jimmy had a 6-2 record. Was on pace to pass for over 4,000 yards. And beating PLAYOFF teams. His 2 losses were against the Vikings opening day in 2018 and the Chiefs (12-4)

    Jimmy comes back from his ACL tear
    Record: 13-3
    Went to Super Bowl
    Stats: 3,900 yards, 27TDs, 13INT

    Not only was he coming off a serious injury, he managed to throw more TD's and Less INT than his previous pace pre injury.

    The only notable adds to the offense Emmanuel Sanders (9 games), Rookie Deebo Samuel (11 games) and Tevin Coleman. Not exactly adding top quality weapons for him, but still an improvement over the lack luster group from the past 2 seasons.

    Going into 2020
    The Niners let Emmanuel Sanders walk.
    Draft Brandon Ayuk
    Defense gets decimated by injury
    Jimmy gets hurt after 6 games
    Record: 3-3
    Stats: 1,096 yards, 7TDs, 5 INT
    Pace: 2,926 yards, 18TDs, 13 INT

    Not great numbers. But he's playing with 2 rookie WR's and nothing else besides George Kittle (gets hurt week 2 and 3 - comes back for 5 games before missing the next 6 due to new and lingering injuries)

    In NO WAY is what you described reality with Jimmy's situation in SF

    Them winning games in 2017 after his trade says more about how their opponents got easier and their roster started clicking for a rookie HC. They lost 4 games by less than 3 points BEFORE getting him, they won their first game with a total scrub at QB, and they beat no good teams in their 5 games with Jimmy. He had 7 total TDs and 5 INTs in his 5 starts, which is pretty similar to his career of averaging an INT/game. Win% is not an individual stat.
    3 out of the 5 games were against the 8-6 Titans (went to divisional round), 10-5 Jaguars (went to the AFCCG), 11-5 Rams (made playoffs)... The BS alarm is so loud right now. Statement: "They beat no good teams" Reality "They beat 3 playoff teams, 2 of the top 4 in the AFC"

    Guys like Wentz and Cam would kill to have the offenses he's had, guys like Staff and Ryan have done far more with similar offenses, and guys like Baker look no worse with similar offenses. Cam and Ryan are former MVPs who took their teams to SB appearances (and didn't just hand the ball off to get there), Wentz was well on his way to MVP in 2017, Stafford has had several seasons better than Jimmy's best.
    Now, tell me. Were ANY of Jimmy's weapons (outside of Kittle) anywhere close to the guys you mentioned targets?

    Carsen Wentz
    Zack Ertz
    LaGarrett Blount
    Mile Sanders
    Alshon Jeffery
    Torrey Smith
    Golden Tate


    Matt Ryan
    Julio Jones
    Roddy White
    Michael Turner
    Tony Gonzalez
    Stephen Jackson
    Devonta Freeman
    Tevin Coleman
    Mohammad Sanu
    Austin Hooper
    Calvin Ridley

    Matt Stafford
    Calvin Johnson
    Kenny Galloday
    Reggie Bush
    Golden Tate
    Marvin Jones

    Cam Newton
    Steve Smith
    Greg Olsen
    DeAngelo Williams
    Jonathan Stewart
    Jeremy Shockey
    Brandon LaFell
    Christian McCaffrey
    Curtis Samuel

    It's literally laughable that you would state these guys would rather have Jimmy's surrounding cast. It's not even remotely close. Yet you wonder why they've put up better numbers. I legit left players off these lists that were better than the ones on Jimmy's

    The literal only argument at this point against Jimmy not being a top 15 QB in the NFL based on what he's done ON the FIELD with very very little surrounding him...is his injury history. Which is a legitimate question mark.
    Last edited by Oakmont_4; 04-01-2021 at 02:14 PM.

    City of Champions

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    Bored so I thought I'd go back and expose even more how badly you misrepresent Jimmy's situation in SF



    2017/18 (last 5 games of 17, first 3 games of 18 before season ending injury - ACL"

    Record: 6-2
    Stats: 2278 passing yards, 12TDs, 8INT (That's pace for 4556 yards, 24TDs, 16INT) well above league average.

    Mind you, here were his top WR's
    Trent Taylor
    Pierre Garcon
    Dante Pettis
    Marquis Goodwin

    RB's
    Matt Brieda
    Alfred Morris
    Kyle Jusczyk

    TE
    George Kittle

    This WR cast is a JOKE. Awful by any standard. Yet Jimmy had a 6-2 record. Was on pace to pass for over 4,000 yards. And beating PLAYOFF teams. His 2 losses were against the Vikings opening day in 2018 and the Chiefs (12-4)

    Jimmy comes back from his ACL tear
    Record: 13-3
    Went to Super Bowl
    Stats: 3,900 yards, 27TDs, 13INT

    Not only was he coming off a serious injury, he managed to throw more TD's and Less INT than his previous pace pre injury.

    The only notable adds to the offense Emmanuel Sanders (9 games), Rookie Deebo Samuel (11 games) and Tevin Coleman. Not exactly adding top quality weapons for him, but still an improvement over the lack luster group from the past 2 seasons.

    Going into 2020
    The Niners let Emmanuel Sanders walk.
    Draft Brandon Ayuk
    Defense gets decimated by injury
    Jimmy gets hurt after 6 games
    Record: 3-3
    Stats: 1,096 yards, 7TDs, 5 INT
    Pace: 2,926 yards, 18TDs, 13 INT

    Not great numbers. But he's playing with 2 rookie WR's and nothing else besides George Kittle (gets hurt week 2 and 3 - comes back for 5 games before missing the next 6 due to new and lingering injuries)

    In NO WAY is what you described reality with Jimmy's situation in SF



    3 out of the 5 games were against the 8-6 Titans (went to divisional round), 10-5 Jaguars (went to the AFCCG), 11-5 Rams (made playoffs)... The BS alarm is so loud right now. Statement: "They beat no good teams" Reality "They beat 3 playoff teams, 2 of the top 4 in the AFC"



    Now, tell me. Were ANY of Jimmy's weapons (outside of Kittle) anywhere close to the guys you mentioned targets?

    Carsen Wentz
    Zack Ertz
    LaGarrett Blount
    Mile Sanders
    Alshon Jeffery
    Torrey Smith
    Golden Tate


    Matt Ryan
    Julio Jones
    Roddy White
    Michael Turner
    Tony Gonzalez
    Stephen Jackson
    Devonta Freeman
    Tevin Coleman
    Mohammad Sanu
    Austin Hooper
    Calvin Ridley

    Matt Stafford
    Calvin Johnson
    Kenny Galloday
    Reggie Bush
    Golden Tate
    Marvin Jones

    Cam Newton
    Steve Smith
    Greg Olsen
    DeAngelo Williams
    Jonathan Stewart
    Jeremy Shockey
    Brandon LaFell
    Christian McCaffrey
    Curtis Samuel

    It's literally laughable that you would state these guys would rather have Jimmy's surrounding cast. It's not even remotely close. Yet you wonder why they've put up better numbers. I legit left players off these lists that were better than the ones on Jimmy's

    The literal only argument at this point against Jimmy not being a top 15 QB in the NFL based on what he's done ON the FIELD with very very little surrounding him...is his injury history. Which is a legitimate question mark.
    I'll gladly blow up half these arguments if I get bored and am at a computer. Jimmy sucks and the only thing you've managed to mention is how many games his team won.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by manbearchef View Post
    I'll gladly blow up half these arguments if I get bored and am at a computer. Jimmy sucks and the only thing you've managed to mention is how many games his team won.
    Its not surprising youd say this with your proven lack of comprehension. Please get bored. You legitimately said the above QBs had better weapons which is plainly false to anyone with even the smallest of football/NFL knowledge

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    Its not surprising youd say this with your proven lack of comprehension. Please get bored. You legitimately said the above QBs had better weapons which is plainly false to anyone with even the smallest of football/NFL knowledge
    You literally listed a careers worth of weapons and acted like they're all playing together in their prime in a single season. You cried about my "listing" of QBs, yet you included Jeremy Shockey's lone year with Cam when he was in the twilight of his career, Curtis Samuel who Cam barely played with, Steve Smith who was there all of 3 years, Brandon LaFell who is a bum and only a two year starter with Cam.

    Even better, you continue to ignore the OL as if it's not a huge piece of the equation. Let me know how he plays with the bum OLs Carolina and Detroit have fielded most years, or what Wentz has dealt with the last 2 years.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    Its not surprising youd say this with your proven lack of comprehension. Please get bored. You legitimately said the above QBs had better weapons which is plainly false to anyone with even the smallest of football/NFL knowledge
    I am shocked at the lengths you will go to defend Jimmy Gimp. The guy has been in the league 7 years and played 1 full season. It does not matter what weapons you have when you cant stay on the field. Jimmy G is a bum and will be out of the league soon.

  14. #89
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    Need a cage match tag team. Wentz and BDawk v mbc and cam vs oak and Jimmy g. Or at least a tandem gondola ride.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack of Blades View Post
    I don't consider Brand New indie. I consider them ****ing awesome and don't belong to a genre.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldjerky View Post
    Need a cage match tag team. Wentz and BDawk v mbc and cam vs oak and Jimmy g. Or at least a tandem gondola ride.
    The rowers keep on rowing and they're certainly not showing any signs that they are slowing.

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