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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    Laws are not made on what is perceived to be bad behavior. Laws are made based on societal rejection of bad behaviors. The majority of society rejects rape, murder, slavery etc. The majority of society perceives other ill behaviors negatively, but doesnít outright reject them. Thereís a difference.

    I donít need to provide examples of others justifications for their fears. I never said I agreed with them. Iím merely stating those fears exist so they should be acknowledged. Just as the black communities fears of police need to be acknowledged and heard. In both cases the worst thing half of society can do is try to illegitimize those fears, instead converse about those issues and find common ground.

    I never said there were no obstacles. I acknowledged there probably were. I even noted 2 that were brought up (water, US birth certificates) and offered whether those were relative (1 is, 1 is not) and offered a way around it without condemning a possible solution to the other sides issues.

    In order to clear the obstacles - itís entirely in congresses control as the 15th amendment states.

    Iíll ask again. Do you have any other obstacles to bring to the table? You seem to keep trying to twist or interject my words rather than move this conversation forward. You seem to be very focused on Trump. I havenít mentioned him once. And again - Iíll state - whether their fears are legitimate or not is irrelevant. What matters is they exist and should not be cast aside. Just as Republicans are wrong to cast aside the fears of the black community.

    Both sides can get what they want here. Tighter voting requirements to clearly define eligible voters. Which appeases those with any legitimate or illegitimate election integrity fears. While also knocking down any barriers or obstacles for those who may have trouble for whatever reason meeting those requirements (as long as theyíre an eligible voter). Everyone wins in this scenario.
    Its perceived bad behavior as well. As you said, things are subjective. Is buying weed bad behavior? Is jaywalking bad behavior? In some states adultery is still considered a criminal act. There are laws in this country that have little basis in reality, much like the justification for this law.

    There's a major difference between police brutality against minorities and voter fraud. If you are going to compare things for the sake of argument, find better correlative actions. Those are not that.

    You keep arguing in circles. You also don't seem to have a firm grasp in regards to keeping track of your original argument. You just said there were obstacles (ones I've mentioned and you acknowledged) but now you are saying I havent brought any to the table? Huh?

    I am focused on Trump because him, Loeffler, Perdue, Biden, Warnock and Ossoff are the reasons for this law. Once the state turned blue, there was immediate push back and pressure from the former president (and the Georgia GOP) to suggest major voter fraud had happened. I dont know what is so difficult to follow. We still haven't seen this major voter fraud he keeps insisting on, yet that was one of the clear motivations for this bill.

    I dont see both sides getting what they want. Operative word being "can" suggests one side did and the other side has to scramble, gather their **** together, and fight this through the judicial system. What I see is a party concerned with losing their grip on a state they have had for decades and attempting to sway that power back in their direction. This isn't about the security or integrity of an election. Tell me all 200,000 of those voters are given IDs in the mail tomorrow and there aren't any obstacles to voting in future elections and maybe we can build on the idea that we are just trying to make sure election outcomes are true. That's not what this bill was intended for.

    All of this mind you for a state that had 35 individual cases of voter fraud in 2020. 35 cases in a state of 7.6 million registered voters. That's .000004%. Let's concern ourselves about that but more trying issues like gun reform, **** that.
    Last edited by metswon69; 04-08-2021 at 03:20 AM.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhino17 View Post
    Voter ID requirements are nothing but government bureaucracy for the sake of government bureaucracy.

    Oh and the racism.
    We shouldnt require ID for anything. Let everyone do and purchase whatever they want!

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  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Its perceived bad behavior as well. As you said, things are subjective. Is buying weed bad behavior? Is jaywalking bad behavior? In some states adultery is still considered a criminal act. There are laws in this country that have little basis in reality, much like the justification for this law.
    Just because a law aligns with an ill conceived behavior, it doesn't mean all ill conceived behaviors become laws. They become laws when there is a mass rejection. I believe all eligible voters reject the idea of ineligible voters casting votes in a Democratic election. Therefore, it has merit to constantly improve the law to prevent this from happening. As technology grows and expands, risks also grow and expand. This is a very basic concept. When a large percentage of people have concerns, they should be heard.

    There is complete justification of voter ID. It is a preventative measure to ensure election integrity. Just as locks on houses offer protection from break ins. Less than 1% of houses are broken into on an annual basis. By your ideology it's not a big deal and nobody should lock their homes

    There's a major difference between police brutality against minorities and voter fraud. If you are going to compare things for the sake of argument, find better correlative actions. Those are not that.
    Less than 1% of police interaction ends up in a case of police brutality. By your ideology it's not a big deal then....Because you know, only a small percentage.

    You keep arguing in circles. You also don't seem to have a firm grasp in regards to keeping track of your original argument. You just said there were obstacles (ones I've mentioned and you acknowledged) but now you are saying I havent brought any to the table? Huh?
    You struggle with comprehension. I asked if you had more examples of obstacles. And now for the 3rd straight post you have yet to bring any forward. You have yet to rebut my response that the issue of US birth certificates is a simple fix. It can be fixed and the current law can still exist. So that obstacle is no longer an issue with the bill. The second was that water for some reason should be provided? I don't see what water intake has to do with voting. People have the means to get/bring their own water, they seem capable enough to do so for every other aspect of their lives so I don't see how it's all of a sudden an issue that prevents them from voting. So what else do you have? I'm going to go out on a limb and guess nothing.

    My original argument is that the MLB pulling $100m from a community that they're supposedly fighting for - is counterproductive. How is it not? Certainly doesn't help the people that are most affected. Instead - lobbying the decision makers in government to fix the obstacles that make the requirements of bill hard or impossible to attain would be a much more effective and productive strategy. That is my point. I have been on that point this entire time.

    I am focused on Trump because him, Loeffler, Perdue, Biden, Warnock and Ossoff are the reasons for this law. Once the state turned blue, there was immediate push back and pressure from the former president (and the Georgia GOP) to suggest major voter fraud had happened. I dont know what is so difficult to follow. We still haven't seen this major voter fraud he keeps insisting on, yet that was one of the clear motivations for this bill.
    Voter ID has been an issue that has been discussed long before Trump even thought of running for office. I won't deny that he has a role in this bill, he certainly does. But those mentioned are only part of this conversation that has been going on for a long time now.

    I dont see both sides getting what they want. Operative word being "can" suggests one side did and the other side has to scramble, gather their **** together, and fight this through the judicial system. What I see is a party concerned with losing their grip on a state they have had for decades and attempting to sway that power back in their direction. This isn't about the security or integrity of an election. Tell me all 200,000 of those voters are given IDs in the mail tomorrow and there aren't any obstacles to voting in future elections and maybe we can build on the idea that we are just trying to make sure election outcomes are true. That's not what this bill was intended for.
    If you're unwilling to listen to the other side and just casting them aside as idiots and uneducated, then no, nobody will win in this fight. This bill is intended to help secure voting in elections. You can make other inferences all you want, and maybe some of them have merit. But the actual basis of this bill is what the bill states. Yes, in any legislation, there are intended and unintended consequences. But instead of never moving forward with something because of it, you work to fix the issues. If every great idea was stopped at the first speed bump, society would not be where it is today.

    All of this mind you for a state that had 35 individual cases of voter fraud in 2020. 35 cases in a state of 7.6 million registered voters. That's .000004%. Let's concern ourselves about that but more trying issues like gun reform, **** that.
    Again, I've never stated there is massive voter fraud. But with any good preventative security measure, you stop an issue BEFORE it happens, not after. With your lack of concern, it appears you like to wait for a massive crime to be committed and then react with security measures. That's just bad policy. You don't leave your door unlocked and wait to be robbed. And then start locking your door.

    Voter ID is a simple, easy concept that make sense. You have not convinced me otherwise. All you have managed to do is convince me that you believe you're way is right - without reason. That potential problems should only be solved after they become a problem. And your comprehension of the words I have repeatedly written in black in white is very questionable.

    Appreciate the back and forth but until you bring something new to the table, this will be my last response to you. Best of luck!
    Last edited by Oakmont_4; 04-08-2021 at 05:35 AM.

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  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Yes it does because not everyone will have access to the free ID, whether its through not having the proper documentation to acquire one or the limitations on how long the government ID remains free. There will be less registered voters today than there was 8 months ago.

    What are you talking about? I'm for people having their unalienable right to vote. Something you are in favor of taking away because your precious president had his *** kicked to the curb. I'm not whatabouting. I'm questioning the oddly convenient timing and motive of a bill that didn't matter before this previous election and is based on zero evidence of having needed to be passed.

    You would know a lot about zero evidence and just wanting to accept your misinformed/ridiculous word on face value. I'll be here with the rest of reality though.
    so still nothing outside of your diatribe. not surprised in the least.

    I am all in favor of people voting. You don't vote, you don't get to complain.
    But keep supporting illegal votes. Crime, crime, crime. That's what you love.
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  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Thats great and all but you need a precedent to justify changing a law that didn't need changing. At the very least, there needs to be proof that illegal actions were occurring. Political pressure from the Trump campaign and Republicans worrying about losing Congressional seats is not good reasoning. Can you give me one instance of voter fraud in Georgia? Can you show me all the instances of illegal voting? Does this happen if Perdue, Loeffler, and Trump win Georgia?

    I know you will try to find ways to justify its implementation but again, legality and constitutionality doesnt equal whats moral and whats right. They simply come down to interpretation, loopholes, and whoever is in power manipulating said ambiguities.

    Brett is a lost cause. He is just super disappointed his favorite president lost. You could give a hundred examples of voter suppression in the South and the precedent that has been set for over a century and it wouldn't matter.

    You and I both know what this law is directed at. Its a formality that its not verbatim prejudice.
    You want one and if given a hundred you would say it doesn't matter.

    That's all you buddy. The lost cause is you by our own admission.
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  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Just about everything is subjective. The idea of laws to protect against what we perceive to be wrong behavior. This is an overreaction to nothing of any consequence based on partisan ideology that one party is getting screwed. It's not ironic that you couldn't provide any of those things I asked for in justification btw.

    I am surprised you dont see the flaws in your logic. You are talking about no obstacles then referring to additional legislation to address some of those same obstacles. You do realize that, right? These things are not linear either. There are no guarantees that legislation is passed because the general principle here is limit voting. It may not be expressively said as such but I and others know (guess you don't see it) who this impacts directly and indirectly.

    You arent convincing anyone btw. Much of this comes from the fact that poll after poll suggests that half or more Republicans think voter fraud is rampant and that it cost Trump the election.
    Yet more thought the 2016 election was fraudulent.
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  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
    Yet more thought the 2016 election was fraudulent.
    This is not remotely true, much like most of your points.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
    so still nothing outside of your diatribe. not surprised in the least.

    I am all in favor of people voting. You don't vote, you don't get to complain.
    But keep supporting illegal votes. Crime, crime, crime. That's what you love.
    No you're not. You're in favor of anything that benefits your favorite president and the Republican party. That's fairly obvious. Prove all these illegal votes exist. 35 cases of voter irregularity among 7.6 million registered voters in Georgia. This has nothing to do with being in support of crime.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...e-floyd-latest

    As I said, anything to help your fellow Republicans and the former president you love so much.
    Last edited by metswon69; 04-08-2021 at 02:42 PM.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    Just because a law aligns with an ill conceived behavior, it doesn't mean all ill conceived behaviors become laws. They become laws when there is a mass rejection. I believe all eligible voters reject the idea of ineligible voters casting votes in a Democratic election. Therefore, it has merit to constantly improve the law to prevent this from happening. As technology grows and expands, risks also grow and expand. This is a very basic concept. When a large percentage of people have concerns, they should be heard.

    There is complete justification of voter ID. It is a preventative measure to ensure election integrity. Just as locks on houses offer protection from break ins. Less than 1% of houses are broken into on an annual basis. By your ideology it's not a big deal and nobody should lock their homes



    Less than 1% of police interaction ends up in a case of police brutality. By your ideology it's not a big deal then....Because you know, only a small percentage.



    You struggle with comprehension. I asked if you had more examples of obstacles. And now for the 3rd straight post you have yet to bring any forward. You have yet to rebut my response that the issue of US birth certificates is a simple fix. It can be fixed and the current law can still exist. So that obstacle is no longer an issue with the bill. The second was that water for some reason should be provided? I don't see what water intake has to do with voting. People have the means to get/bring their own water, they seem capable enough to do so for every other aspect of their lives so I don't see how it's all of a sudden an issue that prevents them from voting. So what else do you have? I'm going to go out on a limb and guess nothing.

    My original argument is that the MLB pulling $100m from a community that they're supposedly fighting for - is counterproductive. How is it not? Certainly doesn't help the people that are most affected. Instead - lobbying the decision makers in government to fix the obstacles that make the requirements of bill hard or impossible to attain would be a much more effective and productive strategy. That is my point. I have been on that point this entire time.



    Voter ID has been an issue that has been discussed long before Trump even thought of running for office. I won't deny that he has a role in this bill, he certainly does. But those mentioned are only part of this conversation that has been going on for a long time now.



    If you're unwilling to listen to the other side and just casting them aside as idiots and uneducated, then no, nobody will win in this fight. This bill is intended to help secure voting in elections. You can make other inferences all you want, and maybe some of them have merit. But the actual basis of this bill is what the bill states. Yes, in any legislation, there are intended and unintended consequences. But instead of never moving forward with something because of it, you work to fix the issues. If every great idea was stopped at the first speed bump, society would not be where it is today.



    Again, I've never stated there is massive voter fraud. But with any good preventative security measure, you stop an issue BEFORE it happens, not after. With your lack of concern, it appears you like to wait for a massive crime to be committed and then react with security measures. That's just bad policy. You don't leave your door unlocked and wait to be robbed. And then start locking your door.

    Voter ID is a simple, easy concept that make sense. You have not convinced me otherwise. All you have managed to do is convince me that you believe you're way is right - without reason. That potential problems should only be solved after they become a problem. And your comprehension of the words I have repeatedly written in black in white is very questionable.

    Appreciate the back and forth but until you bring something new to the table, this will be my last response to you. Best of luck!
    You keep repeating this like it matters. In order to suggest there needs to be voter reform, you need to prove that there is a problem with the electoral process or that somehow its being compromised. It's not. 35 cases of voter fraud among 7.6 million people is negligible. I never said you suggested there was massive voter fraud. Its ironic you question my reading comprehension but still don't understand where this bill got its legs. Have you been asleep since November?

    My point about the comparison of police brutality and voter fraud had nothing to do with how often they happen. It has to do with the severity of those respective crimes and the need to reform them. Twisting words I see?

    Again, you can keep pretending that this is about election security and sure, on the surface, it can be presented that way but its not. The fact that you talk about how voter ID being an issue long before Trump and don't see a correlation here speaks to either willful ignorance or a dog in the fight. This isn't partly because of Trump, Perdue and Loeffler. This has everything to do with them. If the state stays red, we're not talking about voter integrity or securing an election in Georgia.

    I'm not calling the other side stupid or uneducated. With as often you introduce those terms, its like trying to create a narrative that isn't there. The fact that you acknowledge obstacles I and others introduce then suggest there are none on the table is odd but whatever.

    I don't have to convince you. It seems like you have your feet dug in the sand that there are no ulterior motives for this bill besides securing election processes that were shown to be overwhelmingly secure in the first place. Kind of strange but if that's the hill you want to die on, more power to you.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    This is not remotely true, much like most of your points.
    Can't wait to see how you twist this one...
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  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
    Can't wait to see how you twist this one...
    Try more than 1 gallup poll. I can show with consistency that more Republicans think the election was stolen in 2020 than you can show Democrats believing the 2016 election was stolen.

    Wow you quoted a source for once. Holy crap.
    Last edited by metswon69; 04-08-2021 at 02:59 PM.

  12. #192
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    How much wrong...Let's see

    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    No you're not.
    1

    You're in favor of anything that benefits your favorite president
    2
    and the Republican party.
    3

    That's fairly obvious.
    4

    Prove all these illegal votes exist. 35 cases of voter irregularity among 7.6 million registered voters in Georgia.
    Show that there were only 35 instances. So what are we up to...5?

    This has nothing to do with being in support of crime.
    Yes you do not want to eliminate illegal voting of which is criminal. ..so that's #6

    A meaningless link to the topic at hand. #7
    As I said, anything to help your fellow Republicans and the former president you love so much.
    and then you double down on previously two other items.
    A total of 9 things that you are wrong about. In one post. I'm confident you can break your own record.
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  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Try more than 1 gallup poll. I can show with consistency that more Republicans think the election was stolen in 2020 than you can show Democrats believing the 2016 election was stolen.

    Wow you quoted a source for once. Holy crap.
    And you refuse the numbers. Like I said, more in 2016 than 2020. You, not even close.
    Perhaps, just perhaps, you need to learn how to throw in the towel.
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  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
    How much wrong...Let's see


    1


    2

    3


    4


    Show that there were only 35 instances. So what are we up to...5?


    Yes you do not want to eliminate illegal voting of which is criminal. ..so that's #6



    A meaningless link to the topic at hand. #7

    and then you double down on previously two other items.
    A total of 9 things that you are wrong about. In one post. I'm confident you can break your own record.
    You're full of it. If this would have favored Trump instead of Biden, we wouldn't have heard a peep from you.

    I quoted the link of 35 cases of voter fraud. You know? Actual sourced material. Things you have little familiarity with. Prove more than 35 documented cases exist. If this is a rabbit hole you want to go down, you should at least come to the table with more than that Brett word you want everyone to believe is fact. Newsflash its not.

    Hey I am glad a more educated person than you acknowledged that voter suppression favors Republicans. At least some people haven't deluded themselves with right wing dogma that voter suppression neither exists or doesn't favor any sides.

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
    And you refuse the numbers. Like I said, more in 2016 than 2020. You, not even close.
    Perhaps, just perhaps, you need to learn how to throw in the towel.
    Not refuting the numbers. Its 1 poll. I can give you 20 polls that suggest the constant idea that Republicans have carried around since November that the election was stolen from Trump.

    I know your heart is still hurting to this day about that loss though.

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