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  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    But that doesn't make it right. And the NBA players have to put a percentage of cash in escrow, so if too many teams go over the soft cap, all of their salaries can be suppressed. It still comes down to a percentage of revenue that the players are entitled to. Look at someone like say Kevin Love. Kevin Love isnt worth the salary he earns in NBA player terms. Outside of a buyout, the Cavs are stuck with him at his salary. It's highly unlikely that a team would trade for him. In the NFL, he could be cut. That sucks for Love. But it also means that the Cavs have a bunch more cash to spend. If there's a minimum spend, the Cavs would have to spend that and someone would get a bigger deal than they normally would have. That's great for that guy. So it's an ebb and flow. In aggregate, the money is spent. In one situation, it's better for Love. In the other, it's better for the hypothetical FA.
    Not really though because the Cavs are over the cap. So cutting Loves money doesnít free up the entire amount anyways. Likely only a portion. And any Free Agent just sitting out there in season probably isnít worth big money anyways. If itís the offseason, they can execute a sign and trade with love that allows the player FA to be paid handsomely and Love is still getting paid his contract. So no player is really losing at all.

    City of Champions

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by NBA all the way View Post
    Timeout you are 1000% wrong, yet again.

    You really have no idea lol

    If a NBA team uses it BAE, receives a player via S&T, or uses the tax payer portion of the MLE they become hard capped at the tax apron.

    Really truly hard capped, cannot exceed it for any reason (not adjusted reasons, not roll over reasons, not fake future years on a deal reasons), it is a universal number that is the same across the league. That figure this season is $132,627,000. 18 of the 30 teams in the NBA can't go over this figure... THAT is a true hard cap!

    It's the entire point of a hard cap, equality. 1 figure that cannot be manipulated, so to create an even playing field from a salary perspective.

    So, in reality the NBA adheres to an actual hard cap more than the NFL does. [emoji1745]
    The definition of a hard cap is a cap number that cannot be exceeded. Thatís what the NFL has. The NBA does not. Iím not going to continue to talk in circles because youíre misunderstanding a clear definition.

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    The definition of a hard cap is a cap number that cannot be exceeded. Thatís what the NFL has. The NBA does not. Iím not going to continue to talk in circles because youíre misunderstanding a clear definition.
    Lol false.

    Yeah, I'd probably advise ya to quit speaking on stuff ya don't know about too.

    There are 18 NBA teams hard capped at the tax apron this season, that is a fact!

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    Not really though because the Cavs are over the cap. So cutting Loves money doesnít free up the entire amount anyways. Likely only a portion. And any Free Agent just sitting out there in season probably isnít worth big money anyways. If itís the offseason, they can execute a sign and trade with love that allows the player FA to be paid handsomely and Love is still getting paid his contract. So no player is really losing at all.
    But it doesnt just apply to players at the end of their deal. Even if the Cavs would have to take a dead cap hit due to different contract structures and got virtually no space this year, they would free up nearly $60 mill in cash in the following 3 offseasons for Love. And your sign and trade requires someone to actually want to play Love that money. My point is Love is no longer worth that money. The same would have applied to Blake Griffin, even though they eventually figured out a buyout. The same wousl potentially apply to John Wall and others. Instead of the league just passing around bad deals, those players get released, potentially resigned for a smaller deal, which frees up money to spend.

    Plus, as I've said, the players get a percentage of revenue in either sport. There is a bucket of money that goes to the NBA players. They've negotiated how big that bucket of money needs to be. If players salaries exceed that bucket, owners can take money back from escrow. If players salaries are less than that bucket, the remaining is to be split amongst the players. And the yearly cap numbers and tax numbers are built around that. Over the long term, the peice of the pie doesn't change. All guaranteed vs non guaranteed is shuffle who gets a larger peice of the pie. With guaranteed deals, injured and underperforming players on big deals still get there's. With non-guaranteed deals, that money is divvied back into the market for current FAs each year.

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by NBA all the way View Post
    Lol false.

    Yeah, I'd probably advise ya to quit speaking on stuff ya don't know about too.

    There are 18 NBA teams hard capped at the tax apron this season, that is a fact!
    God your head is thick. Yes teams CAN be hard capped in the NBA. Never said otherwise. But not ALL teams are... therefor itís a ďsoft capĒ. Had the team not used an exception - they wouldnít be hard capped. So essentially the team chose to hard cap themselves based solely on their roster choices.

    In the NFL ... ALL teams have a cap number they CANNOT exceed for any reason. That is a hard cap - by definition.

    But keep living in your own reality dude

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    But it doesnt just apply to players at the end of their deal. Even if the Cavs would have to take a dead cap hit due to different contract structures and got virtually no space this year, they would free up nearly $60 mill in cash in the following 3 offseasons for Love. And your sign and trade requires someone to actually want to play Love that money. My point is Love is no longer worth that money. The same would have applied to Blake Griffin, even though they eventually figured out a buyout. The same wousl potentially apply to John Wall and others. Instead of the league just passing around bad deals, those players get released, potentially resigned for a smaller deal, which frees up money to spend.

    Plus, as I've said, the players get a percentage of revenue in either sport. There is a bucket of money that goes to the NBA players. They've negotiated how big that bucket of money needs to be. If players salaries exceed that bucket, owners can take money back from escrow. If players salaries are less than that bucket, the remaining is to be split amongst the players. And the yearly cap numbers and tax numbers are built around that. Over the long term, the peice of the pie doesn't change. All guaranteed vs non guaranteed is shuffle who gets a larger peice of the pie. With guaranteed deals, injured and underperforming players on big deals still get there's. With non-guaranteed deals, that money is divvied back into the market for current FAs each year.
    They would also free up the same $60 mil in my trade scenario.

    Yes the pool does not change, that is correct. But by allowing teams to manipulate a soft cap, thereís the ability to free up more money to spend of that pool on a year to year basis.

    You are right, the pie is the same, Iím not arguing that. All Iím saying is by having a pressure relief valve, of the soft cap, teams are more willing to spend money on larger deals because they donít have to worry as much about maneuvering around a bad contract. With a guaranteed deal and a hard cap, owners will be more conservative with the contracts they hand out. Which ultimately hurts the players.

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    God your head is thick. Yes teams CAN be hard capped in the NBA. Never said otherwise. But not ALL teams are... therefor itís a ďsoft capĒ. Had the team not used an exception - they wouldnít be hard capped. So essentially the team chose to hard cap themselves based solely on their roster choices.

    In the NFL ... ALL teams have a cap number they CANNOT exceed for any reason. That is a hard cap - by definition.

    But keep living in your own reality dude
    32 different values... Hard cap lololol

    Every team in the NFL will be over the league negotiated $182.5 million

  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by NBA all the way View Post
    32 different values... Hard cap lololol

    Every team in the NFL will be over the league negotiated $182.5 million
    https://www.eachieve.com/k-12-course...comprehension/

    I suggest you sign up.

  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakmont_4 View Post
    Last edited by NBA all the way; 04-09-2021 at 06:58 PM.

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    They would also free up the same $60 mil in my trade scenario.

    Yes the pool does not change, that is correct. But by allowing teams to manipulate a soft cap, thereís the ability to free up more money to spend of that pool on a year to year basis.

    You are right, the pie is the same, Iím not arguing that. All Iím saying is by having a pressure relief valve, of the soft cap, teams are more willing to spend money on larger deals because they donít have to worry as much about maneuvering around a bad contract. With a guaranteed deal and a hard cap, owners will be more conservative with the contracts they hand out. Which ultimately hurts the players.
    But the last part cannot be true. They have a certain amount of money they have to spend. And if too many owners use the "pressure relief valve" and use all the soft cap exceptions, players lose money. Every year, a small percentage of all NBA players salaries go into escrow. If the players salaries exceed their bargained portion, owners can literally take money out of escrow, directly taking money from players.

    And in my example, it's not just the Cavs that free up $60 mill. It's the Cavs freeing that up without anyone taking that on. In your scenario, someone had to take that on. Even if it is absorbed into the exceptions and all that crap, someone is still paying him that money. And if agree, as you do, that it doesn't change the pie size, then someone paying Love $60 mill that he probably isn't worth is taking $60 mill away from someone or someone's who probably are more deserving.

  11. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    But the last part cannot be true. They have a certain amount of money they have to spend. And if too many owners use the "pressure relief valve" and use all the soft cap exceptions, players lose money. Every year, a small percentage of all NBA players salaries go into escrow. If the players salaries exceed their bargained portion, owners can literally take money out of escrow, directly taking money from players.

    And in my example, it's not just the Cavs that free up $60 mill. It's the Cavs freeing that up without anyone taking that on. In your scenario, someone had to take that on. Even if it is absorbed into the exceptions and all that crap, someone is still paying him that money. And if agree, as you do, that it doesn't change the pie size, then someone paying Love $60 mill that he probably isn't worth is taking $60 mill away from someone or someone's who probably are more deserving.
    The $60 million is guaranteed. It always exists. It canít be taken away. If the pie is the same - the minute Love signs for $60 mil, heís taken it away from someone else. Whether he plays, is cut, is traded doesnít matter as a part of that pie.

    Thereís 2 parts to the contract pie. The dollars, but also the years. If you make it too hard to get out of bad contracts - teams canít sacrifice the dollars because they have to pay them anyways. What theyíll do is only offer shorter term contracts because thereís no other Avenue to get them out of a bad contract. So now, if they only offer 1-2 year deals at the same or higher dollar values, they mitigate their risk on the contracts going bad because they donít have any other relief valve in the cap system.

    Yes the top 15-20 players will still get their maxes. But anyone below that line is going to be playing year to year deals. Thatís not good the vast majority of players
    Last edited by Oakmont_4; 04-10-2021 at 08:47 AM.

  12. #222
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    Hand checking is what made this a real sport. It's basketball, contact needs to be a part of it and only be penalized when you're clearly obstructing a shot attempt or blatantly hit someone for no reason.

    The way fouls are handed now makes the NBA look like a cupcake tournament, like Shaq eloquently puts it.

  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    Hand checking is what made this a real sport. It's basketball, contact needs to be a part of it and only be penalized when you're clearly obstructing a shot attempt or blatantly hit someone for no reason.

    The way fouls are handed now makes the NBA look like a cupcake tournament, like Shaq eloquently puts it.
    I find the counter of ďoffense will revert back to the 90ísĒ honestly kinda weak.


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  14. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    I find the counter of ďoffense will revert back to the 90ísĒ honestly kinda weak.
    I remember how bad the NBA was in 94/95 which is what lead to the ban on hand checking. The problem was that the show was bad. The hand checking had dramatically increased as an adjustment in defense as the offenses changed in the 80s into the 90s. I don't want that defense back and I don't think that is the problem ... I think the problem is that the officiating on the perimeter has become so hard on the defense that they can't defend even without the hand checking. I think the main issue there is the extra step given on the travel rule and the offense being able to create contact and get the call. We need to give something back to the defense, but I think going back to the wrestling match 94/95 was is way too far.

  15. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    I find the counter of ďoffense will revert back to the 90ísĒ honestly kinda weak.
    I didn't imply it would, nor do I have such an expectation.

    I do expect basketball to be played though, because in the last few years it feels like watching pre-teens play a video game version instead.

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