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  1. #1171
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciaban2.0 View Post
    What did I make up that 99.9999999999999% of the rioters were Trump supporters?

    https://www.newsweek.com/john-sulliv...antifa-1561898
    I wasn't talking about your Antifa ****. I don't care about conservative bogeymen.

  2. #1172
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciaban2.0 View Post
    Among southern Generals a lot of people Consider Stonewall Jackson to have been the superior General, and if he hadn't died so early in the war, he probably could have dragged it out several more years.
    And anyone who says that. You immediately know, they haven't done much research into the Civil War.

    He was a great Commander and a terrible tactician to say the least. But his performance in the Shenandoah Valley is the stuff of legends. Where he defeated a army much larger (I think it was literally like 3 times the size). And this plus the fact he died during the war and was considered a martyr for the war, so his compatriots almost never talked bad about him afterwards, and never mentioned his flaws. However he was flawed... Deeply flawed.

    I already mentioned. His performance in the 7 Day Battles was HORRENDOUS. I'm not going to go into detail, but I suggest looking it up because it was embarrassing.

    He also had a quick temper and was quick to point the finger. He distrusted just about everyone, and his guys weren't too fond of him. And it lead to a very confused and sloppy fight at times. That and the fact he wasn't very good at tactics. Like at all. He knew when and where to attack, but the whole process of deploying lines and coordinating the attacks, obviously perplexed him. Even in battles he won his attacks were always sloppy.

    Lee definitely found him useful despite being heavily flawed. But even Lee started to get irritated with Jackson at certain points in the war.

    He wasn't a bad general in fairness. Just disappointing when you hear all these legends about him as some AMAZING general. Only to find out he was a one trick pony, that had more giant failures than successes in the Civil War.

    But no. Jackson was not superior to Lee. He wasn't superior to Longstreet (who is unfairly criticized for not being successful in Lee's suicide mission during Gettysburg).

  3. #1173
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRSpock View Post
    Lee didn't really give a **** about slavery. He cared about his own land and resources. He's not the villain of the Civil war.

    Both sides fail when remembering Lee. Democrats try to paint him as evil. And Republicans try to paint him as some benevolent genius. Neither are true.

    Lee wasn't even leading the Confederate army when the war started. Alexander Stephens? That guy is a real peace of ****. His Cornerstone speech to me is all you need to read to see what the point of the confederacy was.

    "our new government['s] foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slaveryósubordination to the superior raceóis his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth."

    Yes black people's natural state is to be slaves. And not only is this true it's immoral to think otherwise. Thanks douche bag.

    Nathan Bedford Forest? ****ing scumbag.

    Lee is only used as a conduit because he lead the military. But he's no the villain when we talk about the confederacy. Not even close.
    Bolded: exaggeration.

    Lee was not evil. He was a traitor.

  4. #1174
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    I'm sure we all saw this thread turning into a discussion about generals throughout history, right?

  5. #1175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    Bolded: exaggeration.

    Lee was not evil. He was a traitor.
    Lee was indicted for treason and not convicted. He had his civil rights removed. He died of natural causes in 1870 in Virginia.

  6. #1176
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRSpock View Post
    We'll have to agree to disagree on Lee. There are a lot more people that I would point the finger at in regard to the Civil War. And again. People just didn't look at it that way at the time. And at least Lee was against the idea of succeeding. But I don't blame someone for not wanting to command the killing of the people from his state. Again people didn't have a lot of national pride at this point. People were much more loyal to their state. This includes the North.

    You can also say that he had great courage to stand up for his family, and agree to command the side with a much lesser chance of winning!

    Lee was a good general. And a meh person for his time. You're right when you say he didn't oppose slavery, and didn't fight against things in reconstruction. But he wasn't a proponent either.
    I can respect your position, and I donít really disagree, but Iíll lastly add there definitely was national pride in the North and South in 1812. What happened to it in the south in the 1860s? Perhaps nationalism in the south was the weapon to defend something else?

    I also think itís a punishment of the South that the Leeís and Davisí are represented as these tall, handsome, well-born, devout Christians who were geniuses and whose courage was always physical and not moral. Sound familiar?

  7. #1177
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    Quote Originally Posted by catman View Post
    Lee was indicted for treason and not convicted. He had his civil rights removed. He died of natural causes in 1870 in Virginia.
    Suit yourself.

    The charges brought by Underwood were dropped (I believe per order of President Andrew Johnson). Lee was never exonerated because he was never tried.

    Bottom line: He was a traitor.
    Last edited by Crovash; 09-09-2021 at 10:48 AM.

  8. #1178
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    Quote Originally Posted by catman View Post
    Lee was indicted for treason and not convicted. He had his civil rights removed. He died of natural causes in 1870 in Virginia.
    I don't care if he was convicted. There are infinite resources that we can reference that show him as the military leader of an army that fought against the United States military.
    Let's get embedded tweets working again!

    https://forums.prosportsdaily.com/sh...5#post33780085

  9. #1179
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    Quote Originally Posted by statquo View Post
    I can respect your position, and I donít really disagree, but Iíll lastly add there definitely was national pride in the North and South in 1812. What happened to it in the south in the 1860s? Perhaps nationalism in the south was the weapon to defend something else?

    I also think itís a punishment of the South that the Leeís and Davisí are represented as these tall, handsome, well-born, devout Christians who were geniuses and whose courage was always physical and not moral. Sound familiar?
    Oh I totally agree that the intentions of these statues erection were unjust. A lot of times done with the specific intention of nothing more than trying to perpetuate racism, and intimidate others. And I also don't think it's a good thing for people to turn these people into folk heroes because It also perpetuates this version of a split United States, and the South has since refused to let go.

    And you know who was especially against Confederate Statues? Especially of Robert E. Lee? Robert E. Lee. How the right celebrates Lee is completely counter to what Lee wanted after the war. He wanted nothing more then for the South to get over the war quickly, and unite with the union as a singular nation, and end the divisiveness. He didn't want the perpetuate this version of 2 America's, something he never agreed with in the first place. And he believed we should follow in the footsteps of other countries that experienced similar strife and tear them all down.
    Last edited by MRSpock; 09-09-2021 at 11:58 AM.

  10. #1180
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    Serious question, why are Confederate generals celebrated? They attacked the U.S. and lost. Why are southerners proud of this?
    "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.Ē

    -JFK


  11. #1181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter_White View Post
    Serious question, why are Confederate generals celebrated? They attacked the U.S. and lost. Why are southerners proud of this?
    I think it would be the same as Basque pride of their fighting in a civil war against the government of France.

    It's certainly not an overall positive, but I can see where it comes from.

  12. #1182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter_White View Post
    Serious question, why are Confederate generals celebrated? They attacked the U.S. and lost. Why are southerners proud of this?
    It's that Southern rebel **** people from Mississippi, Alabama, South Carolina, West Virginia, etc, love. Same reason why it was so prevalent in Nascar for 60+ years. I think some Southern states still think the Civil War is going on, especially considering how many re-enactments they love to put on.

  13. #1183
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRSpock View Post
    Do you think this is honestly anywhere near analogous? Whether you think it's a good or bad thing? That's ridiculous.
    I think considering all the widespread rioting that was going on at the time, that everyone KNEW was going on, and that the news was even trying to defend, encouraging people to go into the streets was effectively encouraging rioting. It was very irresponsible.

    According to the FBI report, neither Trump nor anyone in his orbit was involved in the planning, execution or even promotion of the riot that occurred, nearly all the people who showed up for Trump's rally were peaceful. That said, his lies and actions did indirectly lead to that riot, and Trump acted irresponsibly.

  14. #1184
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    It's that Southern rebel **** people from Mississippi, Alabama, South Carolina, West Virginia, etc, love. Same reason why it was so prevalent in Nascar for 60+ years. I think some Southern states still think the Civil War is going on, especially considering how many re-enactments they love to put on.
    West Virginia is not only a Northern state but broke off from Virginia due EXPLICITLY to the issue of slavery and the Civil War.

    Northern states do it too. The people who go to and take part in Civil War reenactments are just obsessive weirdo's about the civil war it has nothing to do with supporting the south or anything like that.

    At my high school in NorCal, the most popular teacher was a history teacher named Mr. Rubio, who was a democrat and was ****ing OBSESSED with the Civil War.

  15. #1185
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciaban2.0 View Post
    West Virginia is not only a Northern state but broke off from Virginia due EXPLICITLY to the issue of slavery and the Civil War.
    You wouldn't know it from how many Confederate flags you see there. My uncle used to be a truck driver. Made many trips down that way and you would run into that **** fairly regularly. Whatever the case is, the point remains. Fine, substitute West Virginia for South Carolina or Georgia.

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