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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba313 View Post
    It's not as simple as he's better than Frank. (Also, the idea that Payton plays better defense than Frank is laughable, but putting that aside...)

    When Payton sits, his shots and opportunities go to better players. Yes, he's a better offensive player than Frank. But Frank isn't taking 10+ shots a game. When Payton's shots go to Rose, RJ, Bullock, and Randle, we're better off. Not to mention we're already seeing how much better the spacing is with him not out there.

    There's absolutely no reason to try to insert Payton into the backup lineup with IQ. None.
    pretty much, Payton has no business taking 12 shots per game in 28mpg in the NBA on ANY team. He's a point per shot guy guy, just horribly inefficient.

  2. #17
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    Hereís the thing. The Knicks can win with Elfrid Payton as the starting point guard. They cannot win with him as the back up.

    It takes a veteran like Derrick Rose to get Obi Toppin, Quickley, Burks, & Knox involved.

    Payton lives off Randle. We all know this. Take away eRandle, Payton doesnít know what to do.

  3. #18
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    I think Payton is decent injury insurance but has no role on this team otherwise. Frank is light years better than him on defense and a better fit with IQ overall. IF Payton is OK with staying on bench then keep him, else flip him for whatever pick we can get. Oddly enough he has the equivalent of an NTC and has to approve any trade. If we can flip him plus some assets for a starting level PG then do that, because Rose is better of coming off the bench long term.

    Payton is a still a net negative player with a -3.1 BPM and -0.3 VORP. He is unexciting and doesn't pass the ball to our second best scorer. I don't think we are legit playoff team this year even as we make the playoffs, I would rather let Frank/IQ get playoff experience than watch Payton suck off those minutes and then walk us to a second round exit. That doesn't help anyone.

  4. #19
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    Here's another look at how the contributions stack up by individual players. Payton is the only net negative starter we have. Randle and Barret are actually a terrific duo and the Burks and Bullock along with Noel have all been very good. Sometimes the number shows things that we don't really catch but these numbers reflect actual contribution to overall winning team basketball.

    http://www.82games.com/2021/2021NYK1.HTM

  5. #20
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    I was also looking at the best three person lineups we have had that have played in at least 10 games or more. Payton shows up a grand total of 3 times in the top 25 and his best showing is at number 14.

    https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/tr...roupQuantity=3

  6. #21
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    Payton is an inefficient scrub. He has some good games once in a while but heís trash. Man come on. Frank seems to be able to hit the outside shot. Paytonís not a terrible defender but some people think heís elite at it and itís wild. The team as a whole plays great team defense always in great position. We need to dump Payton. Ideally we trade for lonzo and let Rose and IQ go back to being the great bench backcourt. Cut into bullocks minutes a little and burks.
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  7. #22
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    Thibs has so far pulled the right strings, so it would surprise me if he removed his guy in Rose from the lineup in favor of Payton. Especially when you consider the minutes that Rose has played. I was expecting Rose to play 25-30 mins tops, but heís averaged 32.5 mins in his 3 starts with a 10.7 +/-.

    Heís just a much better fit for the lineup than Payton because heís more explosive getting into the paint, a better playmaker, and he provides better pace/spacing for us. I donít really see Payton having much of a role with the 2nd unit. Frankís shooting, low usage, and defensive versatility is a better fit IMO.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungStuna View Post
    Thibs has so far pulled the right strings, so it would surprise me if he removed his guy in Rose from the lineup in favor of Payton. Especially when you consider the minutes that Rose has played. I was expecting Rose to play 25-30 mins tops, but heís averaged 32.5 mins in his 3 starts with a 10.7 +/-.

    Heís just a much better fit for the lineup than Payton because heís more explosive getting into the paint, a better playmaker, and he provides better pace/spacing for us. I donít really see Payton having much of a role with the 2nd unit. Frankís shooting, low usage, and defensive versatility is a better fit IMO.
    Ok, take one game away, Payton has put up some nice games, he has a terrible shot but this is a stretch. And payton according to everyone but some Knick fans plays good defense without fouling much.

    And I disagree, IQ needs the court spread more not less, not even about Frank it's about IQ, Frank is not what other teams deem you must blanket him.

    And i'm not sure what some of you listen too, Coach said when Payton gets back he's not going more than 10 deep, he said when Payton returns, that doesn't sound like he's sitting any time soon?

    Payton needs to be traded, and we need something back in that trade to help IQ.


    some of you need to watch Monk play, that is a player that now will get a future contract, he is not just shooting but I didn't know he can drive that well, damn.

    I think it was Boogie who said trade for Monk? He looks really good right now.

  9. #24
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    Dec 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by still a fan View Post
    Ok, take one game away, Payton has put up some nice games, he has a terrible shot but this is a stretch. And payton according to everyone but some Knick fans plays good defense without fouling much.

    And I disagree, IQ needs the court spread more not less, not even about Frank it's about IQ, Frank is not what other teams deem you must blanket him.

    And i'm not sure what some of you listen too, Coach said when Payton gets back he's not going more than 10 deep, he said when Payton returns, that doesn't sound like he's sitting any time soon?

    Payton needs to be traded, and we need something back in that trade to help IQ.


    some of you need to watch Monk play, that is a player that now will get a future contract, he is not just shooting but I didn't know he can drive that well, damn.

    I think it was Boogie who said trade for Monk? He looks really good right now.
    I remember being pissed we didnít take him over Frank. Odd how he just seemingly forgot how to shoot for a few years. Thought he had a good chance to be a scorer in the pros

    Full disclosure, I also wanted DSJ

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by callmeDro View Post
    Here's another look at how the contributions stack up by individual players. Payton is the only net negative starter we have. Randle and Barret are actually a terrific duo and the Burks and Bullock along with Noel have all been very good. Sometimes the number shows things that we don't really catch but these numbers reflect actual contribution to overall winning team basketball.

    http://www.82games.com/2021/2021NYK1.HTM
    Quote Originally Posted by callmeDro View Post
    I was also looking at the best three person lineups we have had that have played in at least 10 games or more. Payton shows up a grand total of 3 times in the top 25 and his best showing is at number 14.

    https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/tr...roupQuantity=3
    Burks name pops a lot more than I would of expected.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by still a fan View Post
    Ok, take one game away, Payton has put up some nice games, he has a terrible shot but this is a stretch. And payton according to everyone but some Knick fans plays good defense without fouling much.

    And I disagree, IQ needs the court spread more not less, not even about Frank it's about IQ, Frank is not what other teams deem you must blanket him.

    And i'm not sure what some of you listen too, Coach said when Payton gets back he's not going more than 10 deep, he said when Payton returns, that doesn't sound like he's sitting any time soon?

    Payton needs to be traded, and we need something back in that trade to help IQ.


    some of you need to watch Monk play, that is a player that now will get a future contract, he is not just shooting but I didn't know he can drive that well, damn.

    I think it was Boogie who said trade for Monk? He looks really good right now.
    SSS, but Frank is shooting 47% (7-15) from 3 through 7 games. Safe to say heís a much better shooter than Payton and will stretch the floor more than Payton as well. IQ is the backup PG, he doesnít need someone ball-dominant like Payton or Rose playing with him. Payton needs to be traded or out of the rotation for depth/injury insurance.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungStuna View Post
    SSS, but Frank is shooting 47% (7-15) from 3 through 7 games. Safe to say heís a much better shooter than Payton and will stretch the floor more than Payton as well. IQ is the backup PG, he doesnít need someone ball-dominant like Payton or Rose playing with him. Payton needs to be traded or out of the rotation for depth/injury insurance.
    IQ has struggled at times when creation is pretty much on him alone. I think Frank can be a better fit too but I could also see the offense falling apart if IQ struggles and Frank is absent on offense


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    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    IQ has struggled at times when creation is pretty much on him alone. I think Frank can be a better fit too but I could also see the offense falling apart if IQ struggles and Frank is absent on offense


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    Burks has to be that next guy IMO. Between IQ and Burks and even Obi for some possessions we should have enough where we don't need to add Payton and his ball dominance to the bench unit.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungStuna View Post
    SSS, but Frank is shooting 47% (7-15) from 3 through 7 games. Safe to say heís a much better shooter than Payton and will stretch the floor more than Payton as well. IQ is the backup PG, he doesnít need someone ball-dominant like Payton or Rose playing with him. Payton needs to be traded or out of the rotation for depth/injury insurance.
    Frank and Rose are both "non shooters" but still 1000% better than Payton and it's not even close. Those guys will hit enough open 3s to keep the defense honest and make them pay a few times a game for sagging off. Payton is a zero threat, they don't have to guard him at all out there because he'll either put up a complete brick or force it inside.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by D-Leethal View Post
    Burks has to be that next guy IMO. Between IQ and Burks and even Obi for some possessions we should have enough where we don't need to add Payton and his ball dominance to the bench unit.
    I would hope so. I think Frank can actually help in creation playing a little pick and roll. In the past he's shown a nice mid range pull up and I think he can make a decent read. I'm just expressing what the concern would be


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
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