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  1. #1
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    Are the Knicks a better team with Payton?

    As much hate as Payton received this year he got to the rim a lot and was a big part of the teams surprise success. Are we better without him? Does his lose make life without Mitch easier? Why and why not?


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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    As much hate as Payton received this year he got to the rim a lot and was a big part of the teams surprise success. Are we better without him? Does his lose make life without Mitch easier? Why and why not?


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    Are we better without him? No, he's better than Frank and can give equal or imo better defense without fouling and can also get to the rim. Are we better with him getting 30+ minutes, no imo.

    Payton has been and still remains a backup PG. Rose is truly still capable of starting and should continue.

    Now this is all predicated on how well Payton plays with IQ, you need Burks in that second unit for sure, but I think if Payton plays with the second unit he also needs to facilitate more and look for burks, IQ and feed Obi and Noel (when Mitch returns)

    Have to still wonder if Knicks will make a move before March 25th, three weeks to go, that will determine a lot as well.

  3. #3
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    It's hard to tell right now but I'd prefer to roll with this current lineup until further notice.

    Payton might be "better" than Frank but I don't know that he is the guy you want playing next to IQ in terms of being complementary to the rook. I like Frank there right now between IQ and Burks. I like Rose with the starters. Are we better? Can't really tell yet.

    The starters with Payton surprisingly performed well most of the season in terms of NET RTG. But the eye test feels like Rose in there just makes the starters more dangerous and they don't rely so much on slow, ugly low scoring basketball to get an edge. I think we've been better coming out in 3rd quarters with Rose, that was a big problem at the end of Payton's run.

    Rose and Frank both need to be guarded when they are wide open from 3. Payton doesn't. That's a big difference too.

  4. #4
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    If we dump Payton we might end up in the same situation were in now at C though if someone gets injured. Question is will Payton quietly go "situational". One injury to Rose and we are super thin up at PG. Frank is sort of an insurance policy there because he has experience at PG but I'd feel better if we had Payton if Rose went down.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by still a fan View Post
    Are we better without him? No, he's better than Frank and can give equal or imo better defense without fouling and can also get to the rim. Are we better with him getting 30+ minutes, no imo.

    Payton has been and still remains a backup PG. Rose is truly still capable of starting and should continue.

    Now this is all predicated on how well Payton plays with IQ, you need Burks in that second unit for sure, but I think if Payton plays with the second unit he also needs to facilitate more and look for burks, IQ and feed Obi and Noel (when Mitch returns)

    Have to still wonder if Knicks will make a move before March 25th, three weeks to go, that will determine a lot as well.
    It's not as simple as he's better than Frank. (Also, the idea that Payton plays better defense than Frank is laughable, but putting that aside...)

    When Payton sits, his shots and opportunities go to better players. Yes, he's a better offensive player than Frank. But Frank isn't taking 10+ shots a game. When Payton's shots go to Rose, RJ, Bullock, and Randle, we're better off. Not to mention we're already seeing how much better the spacing is with him not out there.

    There's absolutely no reason to try to insert Payton into the backup lineup with IQ. None.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba313 View Post
    It's not as simple as he's better than Frank. (Also, the idea that Payton plays better defense than Frank is laughable, but putting that aside...)

    When Payton sits, his shots and opportunities go to better players. Yes, he's a better offensive player than Frank. But Frank isn't taking 10+ shots a game. When Payton's shots go to Rose, RJ, Bullock, and Randle, we're better off. Not to mention we're already seeing how much better the spacing is with him not out there.

    There's absolutely no reason to try to insert Payton into the backup lineup with IQ. None.
    I expected nothing less from you on Frank lol......IMO yes Payton in this forum is very underrated on defense and Frank is overrated in this forum, go figure, they play the same position. Happens with each and every person that plays ahead of him, all the coach's are wrong.

    I'm no Payton fan but to say it's laughable that he's not as good or better than Frank on defense is pretty Frankish. And Payton is at min a threat on offense attacking the rim, if that has gone unnoticed not sure what to say. But from where I sit and others that watch Payton has played some really good defense. And it's a full game your comparing spot minutes which always ends in fouls, ticky tac but it is ongoing.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by D-Leethal View Post
    If we dump Payton we might end up in the same situation were in now at C though if someone gets injured. Question is will Payton quietly go "situational". One injury to Rose and we are super thin up at PG. Frank is sort of an insurance policy there because he has experience at PG but I'd feel better if we had Payton if Rose went down.
    i don't think your dumping Payton unless a PG or SG that has a really good handle is coming back in some way or another, I agree that makes no sense and Thibs has a confident level in him he doesn't have with others.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by still a fan View Post
    I expected nothing less from you on Frank lol......IMO yes Payton in this forum is very underrated on defense and Frank is overrated in this forum, go figure, they play the same position. Happens with each and every person that plays ahead of him, all the coach's are wrong.

    I'm no Payton fan but to say it's laughable that he's not as good or better than Frank on defense is pretty Frankish. And Payton is at min a threat on offense attacking the rim, if that has gone unnoticed not sure what to say. But from where I sit and others that watch Payton has played some really good defense. And it's a full game your comparing spot minutes which always ends in fouls, ticky tac but it is ongoing.
    It really has nothing to do with Frank. I've been beating the drum that Payton is an extremely overrated defender from day one. I've seen nothing to change my stance on that.

    On the flip side, Frank is a good defender and you're really the only person who questions that consistently. I mean, literally one game ago, Frank (and Rose) made a game-winning defensive play.

    Maybe you need to change your seat if your view is Payton is a better defender?

    As for offense, you're absolutely right Payton is a threat to attack the rim. It's just that no one cares. He doesn't really shoot all that efficiently from close range. He's zero threat from the perimeter. Teams are gonna live with Payton going to the rack. That's why we're better off with his shots going elsewhere.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba313 View Post
    It really has nothing to do with Frank. I've been beating the drum that Payton is an extremely overrated defender from day one. I've seen nothing to change my stance on that.

    On the flip side, Frank is a good defender and you're really the only person who questions that consistently. I mean, literally one game ago, Frank (and Rose) made a game-winning defensive play.

    Maybe you need to change your seat if your view is Payton is a better defender?

    As for offense, you're absolutely right Payton is a threat to attack the rim. It's just that no one cares. He doesn't really shoot all that efficiently from close range. He's zero threat from the perimeter. Teams are gonna live with Payton going to the rack. That's why we're better off with his shots going elsewhere.
    Rose deflected the ball, forgot who Frank was covering but he just froze, anyone could have made that steal, really? Ok lets role with that.

    I didn't say Frank isn't a good defender but he plays tough but also gives up back door for the most part of his career has been a no show on help defense, occasionally he has taken the charge yes i'll give him that, but he swipes a lot. And if you play well but then foul is that really a good defensive player?

    Sorry everyone talks about his fouls, I think it was Hahn who is a big Frank fan just was on that the other night saying he has a jajor problem in that area.

    And my seat is fine, i'm not on Franks nuts that is for sure and i'm not a Payton advocate so go figure, but i've watched and he plays hard and he's playing 30 min and it's hard to give it all for all 30 min, much different than coming in twice for a total of 10.

    and yes we all have seen Frank shut a star down for a set, but then see him get beat, but i love his feet work work on defense no denying that he has one of the best lateral defensive movements around but those damn fouls.

    Payton is good on defense sorry you've missed it. Not lock down but he's steady.

  10. #10
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    Are the Knicks a better team with Payton?

    Some interesting takes. I think we are better off without him. I base that on Rose and IQ taking all the PG mins. Maybe he could help IQ with ball handling on the second unit. Idk I prefer Frank overall. if IQ has a real bad game Payton might be a better choice with that unit. Still iíd rather role without Payton. I think that is a the higher ceiling team.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba313 View Post
    It's not as simple as he's better than Frank. (Also, the idea that Payton plays better defense than Frank is laughable, but putting that aside...)

    When Payton sits, his shots and opportunities go to better players. Yes, he's a better offensive player than Frank. But Frank isn't taking 10+ shots a game. When Payton's shots go to Rose, RJ, Bullock, and Randle, we're better off. Not to mention we're already seeing how much better the spacing is with him not out there.

    There's absolutely no reason to try to insert Payton into the backup lineup with IQ. None.
    Donít waste your time, heíll never grasp this lol

  12. #12
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    Payton is garbage, we score more points and hit more 3s when hes gone.

  13. #13
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    Play Payton only if he has trade value and they want to deal him. Otherwise play Frank.

  14. #14
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    I'd play Frank over Payton all day, especially with IQ & Rose here now. We have enough at PG to let Payton go. Rivers too.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by still a fan View Post
    Rose deflected the ball, forgot who Frank was covering but he just froze, anyone could have made that steal, really? Ok lets role with that.

    I didn't say Frank isn't a good defender but he plays tough but also gives up back door for the most part of his career has been a no show on help defense, occasionally he has taken the charge yes i'll give him that, but he swipes a lot. And if you play well but then foul is that really a good defensive player?

    Sorry everyone talks about his fouls, I think it was Hahn who is a big Frank fan just was on that the other night saying he has a jajor problem in that area.

    And my seat is fine, i'm not on Franks nuts that is for sure and i'm not a Payton advocate so go figure, but i've watched and he plays hard and he's playing 30 min and it's hard to give it all for all 30 min, much different than coming in twice for a total of 10.

    and yes we all have seen Frank shut a star down for a set, but then see him get beat, but i love his feet work work on defense no denying that he has one of the best lateral defensive movements around but those damn fouls.

    Payton is good on defense sorry you've missed it. Not lock down but he's steady.
    Frankís defense was great especially since how little he has played this year. Only problem I had with Frank on that steal is he did not go right to the rim. He went to finish off the clock, but had they fouled him quickly time remained for them to string out the game.

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