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  1. #196
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    New York
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    35,237
    Quote Originally Posted by D-Leethal View Post
    Randle, Beal and another guy could.
    Depends on the guy doesn't it. Kawhi? Sure.

  2. #197
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    5,446
    Quote Originally Posted by NYYCowboys View Post
    Thing is though they'd still have all their future picks and tons of cap space and all their young players besides RJ. They'd have plenty flexibility to try to bring in another star or build a very good team around Beal and Randle.
    I don't get this. Yes, we technically keep our future picks. But they are mostly garbage after trading for Beal.

    In the most ideal scenario, we're trading both our picks this year, the Dallas 2023 1st, and giving pick swaps on our 1sts in 2022 and 2024. Most ideal scenario.

    So aside from Beal and Randle (and we'd presumably keep both), here are our assets. And I'll rank them by value:

    Quick
    Mitch (due to get extended this year, or enters UFA after next year)
    Obi
    2023 1st unprotected
    2025 1st unprotected
    2022 1st with swap
    2024 1st with swap
    Knox
    A bunch of 2nds

    What does that even get you? Unless you're willing to trade Quickley, you're not getting much of anything. Nobody wants a 1st that is subject to a pick swap. And if we have Beal and Randle, presumably we at least make the playoffs, which makes those 1sts largely useless.

  3. #198
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    LI-NY
    Posts
    36,808
    Quote Originally Posted by smood999 View Post
    If over these last 5 years or so, the Knicks were just literally the worst team in the league just about every season, do you think that they would be in a better position right now?

    Maybe the issue is that teams don't do that. Teams stay bad for long period of times, but rarely are they consistently picking in the top 3-5 year after year.

    The Sixers are obvious and I would say it's working out great.

    I think the Lakers are better for it as well.

    I would also argue that was the main factor with Seattle/OKC ending up with Durant, Westbrook and Harden back-to-back-to-back.

    Something to think about...maybe it is that easy, but most teams just don't do it to that extent. Who isn't betting on New Orleans or Memphis as the teams of the future if they land another top 5 pick this year?
    Iím not sure what youíre getting at. Obviously getting a top 3 pick for multiple years is a good thing. Thatís not easy to do. The biggest difference from the Knicks and most teams beyond Philly is that the Knicks have never once leaped from mid lottery to top lottery. I would venture to say all other teams mentioned did. They didnít secure the worst record every year to draft that high every year.

  4. #199
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Posts
    2,859
    I'll never understand why the Knicks don't take a page out of other franchises who use extra draft picks to swap and move up to a top 5 or top 3 pick.

    Certain transcendental players I would bet it all. For example, here's Donnie Walsh who bulked at future first rounders for Steph Curry. You know how dumb the Wolves are...and you can't maneuver to move up with a combination swap, protected future first rounder, and/or an asset? Knicks had a collection of young talent including Gallinari to surround Steph with. Then in free agency, the Knicks could've added more pieces. You gotta go for it when it's time.

  5. #200
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    17,770
    Quote Originally Posted by D-Leethal View Post
    Iím not sure what youíre getting at. Obviously getting a top 3 pick for multiple years is a good thing. Thatís not easy to do. The biggest difference from the Knicks and most teams beyond Philly is that the Knicks have never once leaped from mid lottery to top lottery. I would venture to say all other teams mentioned did. They didnít secure the worst record every year to draft that high every year.
    I agree itís difficult, but the teams I named had favorable odds each of those years. They werenít moving up from like 8 or 9 to 2 like the Knicks have been hoping for and it paid off.

    The Lakers were 6th (dropped to 7th and drafted Randle), 4th (moved up to 2nd and drafted Russell), 2nd (stayed 2nd and drafted Ingram), and 3rd (moved up to 2nd and drafted Ball).

    Seattle was 5th (moved up to 2nd and drafted Durant), 2nd (dropped down to 4 and drafted Westbrook), and 4th (moved up to 3 and drafted Harden).

    The reasons why Iím pointing this out is because it shows that the few times in NBA history where a team was consistently near the bottom, it worked out, and because it also shows that the constant losing had no impact on the teams long term. The culture was created when those players entered the building or in the Lakers case, when they turned those players into LeBron and then AD.

    The reason why bad teams stay bad is possibly because they constantly enter the in between phase that the Knicks are in - never bad enough to get a top pick without luck, but not good enough to make the playoffs.

    The Knicks go from the worst or second worst team to 9th routinely because having a veteran presence is so important and because they donít want a ďlosing culture.Ē The benefits are clearly there, but the Knicks have never been smart enough to take advantage of it. Itís also not like what theyíve chosen to do has led to success, which is even more frustrating. Also like some of us have pointed out, every year is different and this year seems to be easier than most to get that game changing player in the draft.
    Last edited by smood999; 02-26-2021 at 10:19 PM.

  6. #201
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Posts
    686
    Quote Originally Posted by rpgmaster86 View Post
    I like Mitch, he reminds me of a young Tyson Chandler...But Chandler gave us nothing offensively except put backs and alley oops. If Mitch does just that we really need more scoring out of our guard positions.

    After thinking about it a lot, I'm ok with trading Obi and RJ for Lavine...at 25 he is already scoring close to beal's numbers but he is a bit younger, a bit more athletic, a bit taller, shooting a bit higher percentage from the field and contract currently is $10 million less .

    Having him and Randle I think is the better Tandem. He would electrify the garden with his dunks...With his contract being what it is we would have max cap space this summer to offer a FA like Kawhi, while competing at a high level...Might even convince Lowry to come for the midlevel as a FA.

    pg - payton
    sg - lavine
    sf - Bullock
    pf - randle
    c - mitch

    Would turn into

    pg - lowry
    sg - lavine
    sf - kawhi
    pf - randle
    c - mitch
    I don't want to trade Barrett, but I like Lavine better than Beal. Beal is putting up numbers in a losing team, it's not as great an accomplishment as it's being made out to be.

    Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

  7. #202
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Posts
    686
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    Beal is a star, but he's not a top level star.

    No beasely can't reach that level, I was saying we need to target guys like him and Brogdon who have another level they can reach. Both those guys are now 20+ppg scorers and both were fairly cheap.

    You're taking everything as a slight against Beal, he's great, but he's not great enough to make us a contender. Look how bad WSH is, you think swapping say, Westbrook for Randle makes WSH a top 4 seed? I doubt it. Randle & Beal is nowhere near good enough to mortgage the future for.

    If you're willing to trade 4 1sts and RJ for Beal, why not just have gone hard for someone like LaMelo?

    at this point if we're really looking to contend just go get Rozier. he'll give you 80% of what Beal gives you at 1/5th the cost and he's younger.
    Agree

    Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

  8. #203
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    Dec 2008
    Posts
    13,583
    Quote Originally Posted by callmeDro View Post
    I don't want to trade Barrett, but I like Lavine better than Beal. Beal is putting up numbers in a losing team, it's not as great an accomplishment as it's being made out to be.

    Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk
    And what is Lavine doing?

    You do realize Beal is a better player, and has actually done some winning before, right?

  9. #204
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Posts
    686
    Quote Originally Posted by ShadyOne View Post
    And what is Lavine doing?

    You do realize Beal is a better player, and has actually done some winning before, right?
    Beal is better in scoring and what else?
    Lavine is cheaper, by a lot and still puts up 25+ PPG. Younger too with room to grow.
    Ideally we acquire whoever it is in free agency. Beal is NOT going to make us a contender but will leave us with no assets to trade for someone who does make us one. Typical Knicks move.

    Best Season (no game minimum)

    Points Per Game

    Bradley Beal 32.8 (2021)
    Zach LaVine 28.8 (2021)

    Rebounds Per Game

    Bradley Beal 5.2 (2021)
    Zach LaVine 5.3 (2021)

    Assists Per Game

    Bradley Beal 6.1 (2020)
    Zach LaVine 5.0 (2021)

    Steals Per Game

    Bradley Beal 1.5 (2019)
    Zach LaVine 1.5 (2020)

    Blocks Per Game

    Bradley Beal 0.7 (2019)
    Zach LaVine 0.5 (2020)


    Lavine is peaking with an unknown ceiling, Beal isn't.

    Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

  10. #205
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    13,583
    Quote Originally Posted by callmeDro View Post
    Beal is better in scoring and what else?
    Lavine is cheaper, by a lot and still puts up 25+ PPG. Younger too with room to grow.
    Ideally we acquire whoever it is in free agency. Beal is NOT going to make us a contender but will leave us with no assets to trade for someone who does make us one. Typical Knicks move.

    Best Season (no game minimum)

    Points Per Game

    Bradley Beal 32.8 (2021)
    Zach LaVine 28.8 (2021)

    Rebounds Per Game

    Bradley Beal 5.2 (2021)
    Zach LaVine 5.3 (2021)

    Assists Per Game

    Bradley Beal 6.1 (2020)
    Zach LaVine 5.0 (2021)

    Steals Per Game

    Bradley Beal 1.5 (2019)
    Zach LaVine 1.5 (2020)

    Blocks Per Game

    Bradley Beal 0.7 (2019)
    Zach LaVine 0.5 (2020)


    Lavine is peaking with an unknown ceiling, Beal isn't.

    Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk
    Who says Beal is peaking? Whatís his ceiling?

    And thereís also the thing youíre ignoring, the whole Beal winning thing. Thereís also the fact that numbers donít always tell the whole story. And who says Lavine is cheaper, and by how much?
    Last edited by ShadyOne; 02-26-2021 at 11:40 PM.

  11. #206
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Posts
    686
    Quote Originally Posted by ShadyOne View Post
    Who says Beal is peaking? Whatís his ceiling?

    And thereís also the thing youíre ignoring, the whole Beal winning thing. Thereís also the fact that numbers donít always tell the whole story. And who says Lavine is cheaper, and by how much?
    What exactly is Beal's winning thing? He won when he was in better teams but isn't good enough to lift his team to better win total?

    These are their win shares for the current season. Bulls are only 2 games better than the Wizards. Yet Lavine has far better Win Shares than Beal.

    https://stathead.com/tiny/D4h37



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  12. #207
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Long Island, NY
    Posts
    4,885
    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba313 View Post
    I don't get this. Yes, we technically keep our future picks. But they are mostly garbage after trading for Beal.

    In the most ideal scenario, we're trading both our picks this year, the Dallas 2023 1st, and giving pick swaps on our 1sts in 2022 and 2024. Most ideal scenario.

    So aside from Beal and Randle (and we'd presumably keep both), here are our assets. And I'll rank them by value:

    Quick
    Mitch (due to get extended this year, or enters UFA after next year)
    Obi
    2023 1st unprotected
    2025 1st unprotected
    2022 1st with swap
    2024 1st with swap
    Knox
    A bunch of 2nds

    What does that even get you? Unless you're willing to trade Quickley, you're not getting much of anything. Nobody wants a 1st that is subject to a pick swap. And if we have Beal and Randle, presumably we at least make the playoffs, which makes those 1sts largely useless.
    First, like I said before those pick swaps are likely never happening. Washington will be awful once they trade Beal, and the Knicks should be pretty good.

    Second, I'm willing to trade Quickley and all the rest of those picks to land a 3rd player to pair with Beal and Randle. Who that will be? I don't know yet, but stars become disgruntled all the time.

    Third, they will still have a ton of cap space to sign either another big player, or use that cap space to build a very nice supporting cast around Beal and Randle.

    Does this guarantee them a championship? No. Could trading for Beal not work out? Sure. But once you land a player of Beal's caliber you instantly are in a better position, and certainly make the team a hell of a lot better, and more attractive to other players.

    The alternative is to do nothing pray that these young guys all work out, and they hit on all these future picks. Given the Knicks track record in the draft and developing players I'll go with option 1.


    NYK
    NYY
    STJ
    BIG D
    NYR
    JUVE

  13. #208
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    England
    Posts
    2,512
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Detfink View Post
    I'll never understand why the Knicks don't take a page out of other franchises who use extra draft picks to swap and move up to a top 5 or top 3 pick.

    Certain transcendental players I would bet it all. For example, here's Donnie Walsh who bulked at future first rounders for Steph Curry. You know how dumb the Wolves are...and you can't maneuver to move up with a combination swap, protected future first rounder, and/or an asset? Knicks had a collection of young talent including Gallinari to surround Steph with. Then in free agency, the Knicks could've added more pieces. You gotta go for it when it's time.
    That draft especially! If you got a guy you want then make sure you get him and we had the assets to get him easily but just banked on GSW not picking him in the end.

    You don't even have to weigh up if you 'lose' the trade, sometimes it's just a case of focus on the guy you want.

    Atlanta and Dallas example with Doncic and Young.


    Proud Knick the other side of the pond

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