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  1. #31
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    Jun 2005
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    Sox did the same thing to a lesser degree with Eloy and Robert. Sox could have waited, as neither would have been eligible for FA for around 6 years, but they rolled the dice to get a discount. Main difference is that Eloy and Robert didnít have any MLB track record, thus the discount for the Sox. Tatis on the other hand is already widely considered a top 10 MLB player, 143 games in.

  2. #32
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    I wonder which White Sox executive made the final call to include Tatis Jr. in the Shields trade.
    I listened to a podcast with Keith Law that is currently up on Sox Machine
    At 30:43 of the Podcast Keith Law answers a question from a Sox fan about when he knew Tatis Jr. might be something special. I wonder what Rick Hahn knew about Tatis Jr. before agreeing to throw him into the deal. Wouldn't he have been curious as to why the Padres wanted him? It seems like Keith Law was already marveling at Tatis' potential upside.
    Throwing Tatis, Jr. into a deal for James Shields will go down as one of the most foolish trades in major league baseball history. I still can't believe the Sox had a generational talent like Tatis Jr. and threw him away for nothing. That was GM malpractice.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sockeye View Post
    Cease actually had a 4.01 era last season, which is very respectable. I still donít understand using Cease in relief for game 2, to save Dunning for game 3 just to take him out after 3 batters.
    To be fair, Cease was awful the last few starts, so no one felt comfortable giving him a playoff start, let alone a Series decider. The Dunning move was way to fast, but I could see why they did it. Granted I wouldn't have, they are thinking we can't fall behind in this game, so they bring in Crochet for a couple innings to set the tone and settle things down. Unfortunately, Crochet gets hurt, and now we are basically screwed using a taxed pen, and having to rely on way too many young guys. Renteria was probably one of the worst BP managers I've ever seen. Assuming he's the one making those decisions. If it was Don Cooper making those decisions, good riddance to him too.

    What I don't get is, if you were that down on Dunning to not let him pitch through a minor Jam, but you trusted Crochet, why not make the bold decision, and start Crochet as the opener? Maybe then he comes in stretched out rather than having to warm up 3 batters in, throwing 97-102 MPH. Maybe you get 2-3 innings from Crochet, with a lead, and now we can get to our BP with confidence.

    It is what it is though. We needed a 3rd starter, but I'm glad we didn't trade for one last year. I'm glad Renteria failed and we hired someone who knows what TF he is doing. We got our 3rd starter now. I trust Cease as a 4th, and I would be shocked if we didn't use an opener for the 5th. Our BP is kinda built perfect for an opener, especially if they just let Kopech get stretched out in the bigs, which is what I'd do. Maybe 1 inning April, 2 innings May, 3 until the break. When he comes back, stretch him to 5 in July/August, and his innings should be low enough to where we can take of the Cuffs in Mid August or September. Just in time for our playoff run!

  4. #34
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    One way we could be creative with our Rotation and Pen is to Make the 1st half rotation:

    1) Gio
    2) Keuchel
    3) Cease
    4) Lynn
    5) Opener BP Day

    The reason I push Lynn back 1 game is cuz I don't expect Cease to get as deep in games, so on the 3rd day, say Cease gives us 5 solid innings, but comes out flat to start the 6th, we can bring in Kopech and Crochet to get us 1-2 innings, closing the gap for Bummer and Hendriks to shut that game down. You go from Cease throwing 97+, to Kopech and Crochet Flamethrowing upper 90's, to Bummer and Hendriks shutting it down. Then you come back on the 5th day with Kopech as the opener for an inning. If he has a rough start, use guys like Rodon and Lopez to eat up the innings that game. If he comes out strong, we go with our studs out of the pen.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by garypeters View Post
    I wonder which White Sox executive made the final call to include Tatis Jr. in the Shields trade.
    I listened to a podcast with Keith Law that is currently up on Sox Machine
    At 30:43 of the Podcast Keith Law answers a question from a Sox fan about when he knew Tatis Jr. might be something special. I wonder what Rick Hahn knew about Tatis Jr. before agreeing to throw him into the deal. Wouldn't he have been curious as to why the Padres wanted him? It seems like Keith Law was already marveling at Tatis' potential upside.
    Throwing Tatis, Jr. into a deal for James Shields will go down as one of the most foolish trades in major league baseball history. I still can't believe the Sox had a generational talent like Tatis Jr. and threw him away for nothing. That was GM malpractice.
    Tatis Jr was a Lottery ticket. Plain and simple. Don't make it out to be more than it was.
    My Ignore List: bklynny67, nastynice, OhSoSlick, spliff(TONE), zmaster52

  6. #36
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    Jun 2005
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    Correct. Tatis was a lottery ticket at a time when we should have been collecting them instead of giving them away. I think it should be noted though that SD knew something about Tatis that the Sox, the rest of MLB and the experts did not, because I remember reading an article published just after the trade that stated that SD was fairly insistent that Tatis be part of the deal.

  7. #37
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    Lets let Tatis in the dark past era, and relish in the present and future. We would all love to have Tatis Jr. here today.

    I'm just excited to see what's in store 2021. My hopes:

    Vaughn starts in the Majors, giving us a ridiculous group of hitters:

    Madrigal: Possibly the best contact hitter in baseball.
    Eloy: Power, high batting average, run producing machine
    Robert: Power, Speed, Contact started good but tapered last year. Hoping he could remain consistent.
    Abreu: With protection in the lineup he showed how great he could be. Our MVP. Power/Contact/Run Producer.
    Timmy: Speed, Solid Power, Elite Contact, big time run scorer at leadoff who will consistently set the tone.
    Moncada: Switch hitter with a sweet swing. Slumped last year after Covid, but he showed us what he can do in 19
    Grandal: Switch hitter, solid BB rate, Above average hitting Catcher. Veteran leader along with Abreu.
    Vaughn: An unknown with 0 AB's, but based on history, he could very well be the best pure power hitter we have
    Eaton/Engel: Eaton and Engel could platoon, play good D, and are just fine for our 9th best hitter.
    Leury: Our utility man who will be giving everyone from all 3 OF spots to 3B/SS/2B breaks.
    Lucroy: I expect him to beat our Collins for backup C, with Collins possibly an early season DH if we decide to keep Vaughn down for service time.

    No we don't have Tatis, but not many teams have a lineup that is 8 deep with potential elite hitters. It is going to be really fun to witness this after the last 14 years! By and far the best roster I've ever witnessed. And that's just hitting. Pitching could be equally as fun:

    Gio: True Ace workhorse. Top 7 in the last 2 Cy Young's
    Keuchel: Steady Freddy Vetty Lefty who will eat up innings efficiently
    Lynn: Veteran Inning eater who is coming off his 2 best seasons. Solid K/Per. To 6 in the last 2 Cy Young's
    Cease: Still a work in progress, but has elite upside. More pure talent then our 1-3.
    Rodon: Not sure how we will handle our 5th, but from the sounds of things, Rodon came back to us because he was told he will have a shot at a starting spot. I assume he will have a short leash, and we could revert to an opener 5th spot, which IMO is the way to go. I was done with Rodon, but maybe he will surprise us coming in with less pressure as a bottom of the rotation guy, rather then a guy people expected to be a 1-3.

    Reynaldo/Foster/Fry/Heuer make up our lower tier Relievers. Reynaldo will likely be an innings eater for us. One of our starters gets rocked and we fall way behind, let Reynaldo come in and preserve the rest of our pen. Foster and Heuer will round out the bottom half of the pen, with Fry coming in sometime in May. By that point, we might already be over the Rodon Experiment. You do do a lot worse then this for your innings eaters.

    Marshall/Crochet/Kopech/Bummer/Hendriks are the stoppers. This will be our main 7-9 group, and it's a pretty damn filthy 1. Especially if Kopech and Crochet get used like Urias as a finisher, which is something Hahn has brought up as a real possibility. If those 2 stick in the pen this year, which I assume will happens, unless they use Kopech as an opener, then it might be like have a Righty and Lefty version of Hader in our pen. If we ever end up in a jam and need a K, we have 3 guys that are elite at getting the job done. Then you have one of the best sinkers in baseball in Bummer. This bullpen is going to be a force, and it might end up being more valuable then our rotation.

  8. #38
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    Jul 2017
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    Quote Originally Posted by dabears34ft View Post
    Lets let Tatis in the dark past era, and relish in the present and future. We would all love to have Tatis Jr. here today.

    I'm just excited to see what's in store 2021. My hopes:

    Vaughn starts in the Majors, giving us a ridiculous group of hitters:

    Madrigal: Possibly the best contact hitter in baseball.
    Eloy: Power, high batting average, run producing machine
    Robert: Power, Speed, Contact started good but tapered last year. Hoping he could remain consistent.
    Abreu: With protection in the lineup he showed how great he could be. Our MVP. Power/Contact/Run Producer.
    Timmy: Speed, Solid Power, Elite Contact, big time run scorer at leadoff who will consistently set the tone.
    Moncada: Switch hitter with a sweet swing. Slumped last year after Covid, but he showed us what he can do in 19
    Grandal: Switch hitter, solid BB rate, Above average hitting Catcher. Veteran leader along with Abreu.
    Vaughn: An unknown with 0 AB's, but based on history, he could very well be the best pure power hitter we have
    Eaton/Engel: Eaton and Engel could platoon, play good D, and are just fine for our 9th best hitter.
    Leury: Our utility man who will be giving everyone from all 3 OF spots to 3B/SS/2B breaks.
    Lucroy: I expect him to beat our Collins for backup C, with Collins possibly an early season DH if we decide to keep Vaughn down for service time.

    No we don't have Tatis, but not many teams have a lineup that is 8 deep with potential elite hitters. It is going to be really fun to witness this after the last 14 years! By and far the best roster I've ever witnessed. And that's just hitting. Pitching could be equally as fun:

    Gio: True Ace workhorse. Top 7 in the last 2 Cy Young's
    Keuchel: Steady Freddy Vetty Lefty who will eat up innings efficiently
    Lynn: Veteran Inning eater who is coming off his 2 best seasons. Solid K/Per. To 6 in the last 2 Cy Young's
    Cease: Still a work in progress, but has elite upside. More pure talent then our 1-3.
    Rodon: Not sure how we will handle our 5th, but from the sounds of things, Rodon came back to us because he was told he will have a shot at a starting spot. I assume he will have a short leash, and we could revert to an opener 5th spot, which IMO is the way to go. I was done with Rodon, but maybe he will surprise us coming in with less pressure as a bottom of the rotation guy, rather then a guy people expected to be a 1-3.

    Reynaldo/Foster/Fry/Heuer make up our lower tier Relievers. Reynaldo will likely be an innings eater for us. One of our starters gets rocked and we fall way behind, let Reynaldo come in and preserve the rest of our pen. Foster and Heuer will round out the bottom half of the pen, with Fry coming in sometime in May. By that point, we might already be over the Rodon Experiment. You do do a lot worse then this for your innings eaters.

    Marshall/Crochet/Kopech/Bummer/Hendriks are the stoppers. This will be our main 7-9 group, and it's a pretty damn filthy 1. Especially if Kopech and Crochet get used like Urias as a finisher, which is something Hahn has brought up as a real possibility. If those 2 stick in the pen this year, which I assume will happens, unless they use Kopech as an opener, then it might be like have a Righty and Lefty version of Hader in our pen. If we ever end up in a jam and need a K, we have 3 guys that are elite at getting the job done. Then you have one of the best sinkers in baseball in Bummer. This bullpen is going to be a force, and it might end up being more valuable then our rotation.
    Rick Hahn will have little to say as to who plays where....LaRussa didn't come here to listen to Ricky ...........This isn't Renteria...

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bainsy View Post
    Rick Hahn will have little to say as to who plays where....LaRussa didn't come here to listen to Ricky ...........This isn't Renteria...
    Well obviously, but if he's bringing it up, I'm sure it's being discussed. I'm sure Rick Hahn and our FO has plenty to say about Kopech and Crochet's innings limits, and from the sounds of things, there could be some creativity with their roles. My assumption is Openers, Finishers, and some high leverage 0-1 out, man on 3rd, up 1 or tied, and we need a K badly situations.
    Last edited by dabears34ft; 02-22-2021 at 01:10 PM.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sockeye View Post
    Correct. Tatis was a lottery ticket at a time when we should have been collecting them instead of giving them away. I think it should be noted though that SD knew something about Tatis that the Sox, the rest of MLB and the experts did not, because I remember reading an article published just after the trade that stated that SD was fairly insistent that Tatis be part of the deal.
    Knew something or was interested in collecting tickets? I am guessing the latter.
    My Ignore List: bklynny67, nastynice, OhSoSlick, spliff(TONE), zmaster52

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
    Knew something or was interested in collecting tickets? I am guessing the latter.
    One thing for certain is this......We knew NOTHING about him!!!! And yet we signed him for a decent bonus!!! So yes the FO and Hahn will have to wear this one for ever! If he is on this team we could be the 27 YANKEES..........with the pieces we already have.

  12. #42
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    So let's stop this nonsense about lottery ticket crap!

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bainsy View Post
    One thing for certain is this......We knew NOTHING about him!!!! And yet we signed him for a decent bonus!!! So yes the FO and Hahn will have to wear this one for ever! If he is on this team we could be the 27 YANKEES..........with the pieces we already have.
    You miss a lot of the butterfly effect on this one my friend.

    We made a deal that ultimately we lost. Was it worth the risk? Normally yes.
    My Ignore List: bklynny67, nastynice, OhSoSlick, spliff(TONE), zmaster52

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
    You miss a lot of the butterfly effect on this one my friend.

    We made a deal that ultimately we lost. Was it worth the risk? Normally yes.
    I'd prefer if you didn't have an answer you stop typing gibberish!!

  15. #45
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    I think our FO has done more then enough to make me give zero ***** about Fernando ****ing Tatis. Good for the Padres for fleecing us. **** happens. At the end of the day, we would have suffered as a fan base til 2020 either way, and we are about to be unbelievably good.

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