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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    nope, I just twisted some things around, convoluting your points, just like you have the tendency to do.

    I wasn't 'appealing to my own authority', just simply stating that many posting here don't seem to know, maybe you do I don't know your background, about all the costs even just of having an employee, let alone everything else. However, stating that if a business can't afford a bump in minimum wage it doesn't deserve to exist...is a bit harsh.

    Of course they should be able to stand, even expect, such things. Doesn't mean they always have the option of keeping all their employees if they have to raise everyone's wages (again, raising the minimum will effect everyone's wage at least some).
    If you can't afford to pay your employees a living wage it means you're a horrible business owner.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by GasMan View Post
    I think the fundamental question we should be asking is “Is it ok to have an economy that requires a substantial % of the workforce to make poverty wages?”. If the answer is no, then the debate on how to ensure people have access to living wage jobs can begin.
    This.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    If you can't afford to pay your employees a living wage it means you're a horrible business owner.
    So every single job should be a career?
    My Ignore List: bklynny67, nastynice, OhSoSlick, spliff(TONE), zmaster52

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by GasMan View Post
    I think the fundamental question we should be asking is “Is it ok to have an economy that requires a substantial % of the workforce to make poverty wages?”. If the answer is no, then the debate on how to ensure people have access to living wage jobs can begin.
    I think a major area we are failing in is in education from the bottom to the top. It's easier for people with means to get a good education and then make more money, there is also something to the confidence going in to schooling that comes with having money coming up.

    The long term solution is a huge investment in education.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    If you can't afford to pay your employees a living wage it means you're a horrible business owner.
    I didn't say anything about not raising the minimum wage or not paying people a living wage.
    I have talked about how much to raise it and what the effects of raising it are.
    And, in what you're quoting, I've said in some cases the effect would be an employer having to thin down the number of jobs in his business. We're also talking about a time frame where many businesses are in maybe their unhealthiest situation they've ever dealt with.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by GasMan View Post
    I think the fundamental question we should be asking is “Is it ok to have an economy that requires a substantial % of the workforce to make poverty wages?”. If the answer is no, then the debate on how to ensure people have access to living wage jobs can begin.
    And one of the first aspects of that is to determine what we consider a living wage.
    Enough that a full time single person sharing an apartment with someone can get by?
    Enough that a married man can support a wife and kids and afford a mortgage?
    Somewhere in between? What?
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    And one of the first aspects of that is to determine what we consider a living wage.
    Enough that a full time single person sharing an apartment with someone can get by?
    Enough that a married man can support a wife and kids and afford a mortgage?
    Somewhere in between? What?
    In nowhere Texas or Manhattan?

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    I think a major area we are failing in is in education from the bottom to the top. It's easier for people with means to get a good education and then make more money, there is also something to the confidence going in to schooling that comes with having money coming up.

    The long term solution is a huge investment in education.
    No the long term solution is more affordable accessibility to a higher education. Throwing money at the education system in this country won't fix the problem. The US spends 6.1% of their GDP yet we fall behind many countries in basic subjects such as math and science and % of people graduating with college degrees.

    The idea that you need to take out 65,000+ thousand dollars in loans (if you live on campus) to get a 4 year degree is insane. That's just the average for a public institution as well. Even more amazing when many of these colleges sit on endowments that sit in the 8-11 figures based on the school.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccugrad1 View Post
    How do you define a "living wage?" I could make the argument that even at $15.00 per hour you are still nothing more than a better paid paycheck to paycheck worker and we still have not even discussed how much things are going to go up as a result.

    Let's say nothing goes up. At $15.00 an hour you are looking at $600.00 per week, and that is before retirement, insurances, taxes, etc. At $600.00 per week, you are looking at $31,200 per year before taxes, so plan on somewhere between $24-$25,000 after taxes for the year. If I Google the average rent, it is around $1,468 per month. Multiply that by 12 months and you are looking at $17,616 a year. Now you are down to $6,884, if we are basing you bringing home $24,500 per year.
    Also, let's say you are reasonably frugal at the grocery store and spend $75.00 a week in groceries living by yourself. That's another $3,900 a year in groceries. Now you are down to $2,984 for the year.

    Factor in gas to get back and forth to work over a year, car insurance, etc, etc, etc and guess what you are just as broke at the end of the year as someone making $7.25 per hour.
    You would be making an accurate argument. I'm quite sure that we'd disagree on the solution, but you've accurately and thoroughly pointed out the problem. That math applies to 42% of american workers.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    No the long term solution is more affordable accessibility to a higher education. Throwing money at the education system in this country won't fix the problem. The US spends 6.1% of their GDP yet we fall behind many countries in basic subjects such as math and science and % of people graduating with college degrees.

    The idea that you need to take out 65,000+ thousand dollars in loans (if you live on campus) to get a 4 year degree is insane. That's just the average for a public institution as well. Even more amazing when many of these colleges sit on endowments that sit in the 8-11 figures based on the school.
    And how do they make education cheaper to the consumer without it costing the government money? Are you thinking we should nationalize universities? And if we do won't that cost a lot of money?

    There certainly isn't an easy solution.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    I think a major area we are failing in is in education from the bottom to the top. It's easier for people with means to get a good education and then make more money, there is also something to the confidence going in to schooling that comes with having money coming up.

    The long term solution is a huge investment in education.
    That supposes that people in those jobs can just move to better paying jobs but then who works in the food service industry? Who cleans offices? There are jobs that’ll need to be done even if everyone in the country has a masters degree. Why do we only value some work?

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    In nowhere Texas or Manhattan?
    well, a federally mandated minimum has to be based closer to nowhere Texas...or, not sure the logistics of this, but a federally mandated minimum could potentially not be a specific dollar amount, but instead based on the cost of living index for each state.......similar to the location bumps of many federal jobs where they set a rate and multiply it by a location index. For example, going by a few years ago via my brother's job, his rate in Omaha was the base plus 14%. When he moved to Honolulu it became base plus 42%.

    The cost of living index in MS is 86.1 while it's 192.9 in HI. Whether using the index directly or not, the federal minimum would need to be based on places with the lowest index. The problem in some states has been, they leave it there despite THEIR state's cost of living index being higher. So, a way around that would be for the feds to stipulate the minimum based on cost of living. States could go higher, but couldn't go lower.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    And how do they make education cheaper to the consumer without it costing the government money? Are you thinking we should nationalize universities? And if we do won't that cost a lot of money?

    There certainly isn't an easy solution.
    I don't know the answer to that. Above my pay grade. There was talk in 2015 of letting community colleges be free for those families making under 125,000 dollars a year. That could certainly mitigate expenses if you can achieve an associates degree, cut your credit load in half, and transfer that towards a bachelor's degree. Lowering the federal loan rate further could help as well. College costs are soaring. 1400% rise since 1978. That's four times the rate of overall inflation.
    Last edited by metswon69; 02-12-2021 at 11:46 AM.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by GasMan View Post
    That supposes that people in those jobs can just move to better paying jobs but then who works in the food service industry? Who cleans offices? There are jobs that’ll need to be done even if everyone in the country has a masters degree. Why do we only value some work?
    How do they value some pro athletes? Sometimes a head scratcher there, too.

    Back 100 years ago when I was a senior in HS, my guidance counselor (who was crap, but I didn't know that at the time) insisted 'there's no way a guy as smart as you shouldn't go to college' when I said I was considering possibly becoming an electrician (not even seriously, just as a fallback option at the time). He said I would make a far better living with a 4 yr degree than 'going to a tech school for a year or two'. Meanwhile, my main intent was to get a degree in music ed and become a band director. Which of those two occupations generally makes more money?

    But you're right....education is good, but the more people that have a similar education, the more competition there is for the same jobs and the people that can't get them are flipping burgers while paying off big school loans.

    Another aspect of education, though, is existing K-12 education. Students today get into subjects by junior high we may not have gotten to until late HS or even college years ago. That part is great, but it also means they spend less time learning some things and completely skip over others. Ever see the blank look on someone's face when you hand them $11 cash for a $5.60 purchase and they can't figure out what the dollar bill is for?

    But, we'll always need people to do certain un/less skilled jobs. And, we'll always have people who just aren't geared to get education beyond HS. The problem is, there is never a good balance in the numbers.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    And how do they make education cheaper to the consumer without it costing the government money? Are you thinking we should nationalize universities? And if we do won't that cost a lot of money?

    There certainly isn't an easy solution.
    There would obviously be problems in doing this and not just in paying for it. How do you deal with private universities? You'd kill them if everyone could go to a public one free. I mean Harvard has more in trust funds than a lot of countries have GNP but not all do.

    I think we've talked about this before. What if people could partially or completely pay for college with sweat equity? Get X dollars in grant money for each year in the military or Peace Corps. Get Y dollars per hour in grant money working on campus or some govt job like census taking. Get Z dollars in grant money to spend the summer months picking up trash on highways. Spitballing obviously.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

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