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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    Which goes to show that plenty of business owners will absolutely not pay people "decently" unless forced to.
    No, what I mean is, there will always be people at the minimum- math. But the more you push the floor up, the more jobs will be paid at that minimum. If the minimum wage was changed to $25/hr, there would be a TON of jobs paid at the minimum.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    If a business owner can't pull off making both a reasonable amount and more than their employees, than they probably shouldn't be a business owner in the first place.
    really....you want employers to pay their employees more, but it would be the employer's fault if that means they themselves aren't making a good living...but if they're making a good living, they should be paying their employees even more...

    Again, I'm talking about a typical small business owner, small enough that the owner is running day to day operations as opposed to 'under 500 employees' as defined by the government. The guy that owns the local office supply store, the gal that owns the consignment shop, even the guy who owns the manufacturing plant for the products he invented where sales are in the millions but so are the costs.

    It isn't REMOTELY unusual for a solid business with a good owner to have a lean net income, especially in the early years of business. Not every business can just raise prices, increase sales, or cut other costs to pay for higher wages. After all, why would they not already have done those things if they were viable options? Why would I sell my widgets for $15 each if I could sell just as many at $20? Why would I sell 800 of them a week if I could sell 1,000? Why would I pay $8 each for materials if I could get them for $6?

    I think too many of you are skewed by what you think is happening with big corps and don't understand what's happening in most small businesses. The typical owner who is working day to day in his business is paying his people the best he can. He has to work directly with them, maybe even knows them outside of work. He's not 'screwing' them over by paying them $10/hr when he knows his bottom line would be just fine paying $15. Of course it happens, but it's not the norm some of you seem to think.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGGGG-Men View Post
    It’s a bad idea.

    Minimum wage should be more like $20-25/hr to keep up with its original intent of keeping all workers at a decent standard of life.


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    This is batshit insane.
    "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.”

    -JFK


  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    Understood, but another part of this is...if Jim is making $11/hr now and John is making $15/hr now, how much should John make if minimum wage is moved to $15? And on up from there...if Jeff is making $20 while the company's minimum is $11, how much should HE make if the minimum is moved to $15?

    And people not in business don't necessarily understand that if a company pays you $15/hr, you cost them MORE than $15/hr since they pay federal taxes and those taxes increase as the wage increases. That doesn't even get into the increases in 401k matches if the employee is eligible, etc....insurance costs are based on age, not wage, so that cost doesn't change but can easily be another $1,000 a month per employee.

    An employee has a right to earn enough to live, but an employer has a right to earn a reasonable amount, too. We live in a capitalistic society and I GUARANTEE that if YOU are the business owner, you're not committing all the resources you are, going through all the stress you go through, etc only to have employees with more net income than you.
    And this is also pretty accurate.

    I think my issue is with how this larger argument is framed. The politicians and the corporate lobby have allowed wages to stagnate for decades. At some point, being a welfare corporation became completely acceptable. That unnaturally keeps wages down.

    For instance, if I have a worker doesnt have access to welfare and I pay them 7.25 an hour. That person is struggling for food, shelter, health care, etc...I end up having to pay them more because at a certain point that piece of equipment just doesnt work any more. Equate that person to a bobcat/skid steer. If I have a piece of equipment that I dont maintain, dont buy fuel for, and beat it into the ground, I dont go to the government and ask that they patch it back together and fill it with fuel. If I expect that, my business model is flawed. While it may sound harsh, there is no difference between that piece of equipment and a person in this scenario. I cant afford to do business for what I'm charging for services or at the low wages that I'm paying. My business is being falsely propped up by the welfare system. I'm am a welfare company. There are no working people on welfare, there are only companies on welfare.

    No one working 40+hours a week is a bum living off of the system. When 42% of jobs pay less than 15 an hour, no one is foolish or lazy for not making more. People arent whiners or ungrateful for demanding better. Clearly these arent thing you are saying, but they are common themes in this argument.

    We have a bigger problem with our economy. A higher minimum wage could be a help, but it wont solve the problem. We have much bigger problem that we will have to deal with at some point.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    again, you're thinking big corps while I'm talking typical small business......and no, they don't...if they did thousands of them wouldn't have gone under in the past year
    They shouldn't be in business if they can't pay their employees a living wage

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  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by blams View Post
    They shouldn't be in business if they can't pay their employees a living wage

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    have you been following along....I mean at all?
    You've not seen me ONCE talk about not paying people a 'living wage'
    I HAVE, however, talked about what that is.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    No, what I mean is, there will always be people at the minimum- math. But the more you push the floor up, the more jobs will be paid at that minimum. If the minimum wage was changed to $25/hr, there would be a TON of jobs paid at the minimum.
    I fully understand the math but you're also kinda making my point for me.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by blams View Post
    They shouldn't be in business if they can't pay their employees a living wage

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    Sure, bit dont you think hiking min wage up by $10 at once would have a lot more negative effect on business owner vs slowly increasing it over a set time?

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  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Sure, bit dont you think hiking min wage up by $10 at once would have a lot more negative effect on business owner vs slowly increasing it over a set time?

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    Once again, you are clueless about the topic you're trying to chime in on. The minimum wage isn't rising by $10 and the rise that's planned isn't happening all at once either.

    Seriously, dude. What is your ****ing deal? Do you love the sound of your own voice so much that you can't help but sound off regardless of a complete lack of information on the topic at hand? It's a super obnoxious quality that you just revel in.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    It is one-sided and it doesn’t stop being one-sided bc you invent or find an anomaly where it’s easy to feel for the business owner. Business owners make money, don’t report it or deduct it into thin air, and are allowed to take advantage of a labor market whose forces are stacked in their favor. You know this but you hate the big bad government, see “govt regulation”, and have a knee-jerk reaction. This is long overdue. In most cases businesses that were going to succeed will succeed anyway, the ones that were going to fail will still fail they will just have a new excuse.
    If you asked everyone what they'd rather be, the average business owner with all the stress, possible debt, startup capital invested, etc. or the average person on minimum wage with all their financial problems 100/100 people would say they'd want to be the business owner.

    So how can it be worse to be the business owner than the minimum wage employee if nobody wants to be the employee?

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    I fully understand the math but you're also kinda making my point for me.
    then, no, you don't understand the math
    in any group of numbers, no matter how large or small, one will always be the smallest of the group
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by blams View Post
    They shouldn't be in business if they can't pay their employees a living wage

    Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk
    How do you define a "living wage?" I could make the argument that even at $15.00 per hour you are still nothing more than a better paid paycheck to paycheck worker and we still have not even discussed how much things are going to go up as a result.

    Let's say nothing goes up. At $15.00 an hour you are looking at $600.00 per week, and that is before retirement, insurances, taxes, etc. At $600.00 per week, you are looking at $31,200 per year before taxes, so plan on somewhere between $24-$25,000 after taxes for the year. If I Google the average rent, it is around $1,468 per month. Multiply that by 12 months and you are looking at $17,616 a year. Now you are down to $6,884, if we are basing you bringing home $24,500 per year.
    Also, let's say you are reasonably frugal at the grocery store and spend $75.00 a week in groceries living by yourself. That's another $3,900 a year in groceries. Now you are down to $2,984 for the year.

    Factor in gas to get back and forth to work over a year, car insurance, etc, etc, etc and guess what you are just as broke at the end of the year as someone making $7.25 per hour.
    Last edited by ccugrad1; 02-11-2021 at 04:28 PM.
    Eichel Tower

  13. #163
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    $15/hr Minimum Wage -- Good of Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by ccugrad1 View Post
    How do you define a "living wage?" I could make the argument that even at $15.00 per hour you are still nothing more than a better paid paycheck to paycheck worker and we still have not even discussed how much things are going to go up as a result.

    Let's say nothing goes up. At $15.00 an hour you are looking at $600.00 per week, and that is before retirement, insurances, taxes, etc. At $600.00 per week, you are looking at $31,200 per year before taxes, so plan on somewhere between $24-$25,000 after taxes for the year. If I Google the average rent, it is around $1,468 per month. Multiply that by 12 months and you are looking at $17,616 a year. Now you are down to $6,884, if we are basing you bringing home $24,500 per year. Also,

    Let's say you are reasonably frugal at the grocery store and spend $75.00 a week in groceries living by yourself. That's another $3,900 a year in groceries. Now you are down to $2,984 for the year.

    Factor in gas to get back and forth to work over a year, car insurance, etc, etc, etc and guess what you are just as broke at the end of the year as someone making $7.25 per hour.
    if that is average rent- average studio, one-bedroom, or shared apartment is less. Second, if you are accumulating debt each month, getting evicted, or having your stuff turned off, you are more broke than someone that isn't

    This is a weird argument
    Last edited by ewing; 02-11-2021 at 04:27 PM.
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    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  14. #164
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    May 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    then, no, you don't understand the math
    in any group of numbers, no matter how large or small, one will always be the smallest of the group
    No ****, dude. I told you I understand the numbers. How you think this is some difficult to grasp concept, I do not know.

    If small, overdue bumps in the minimum wage equate to more employees making minimum wage, then I believe that shows that business owners will do whatever they can to keep costs down, including shortchanging their employees as much as they can within the bounds of state and federal laws. If you disagree....fine but no need to pretend like you're presenting some advanced mathematical concept.

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccugrad1 View Post
    How do you define a "living wage?" I could make the argument that even at $15.00 per hour you are still nothing more than a better paid paycheck to paycheck worker and we still have not even discussed how much things are going to go up as a result.

    Let's say nothing goes up. At $15.00 an hour you are looking at $600.00 per week, and that is before retirement, insurances, taxes, etc. At $600.00 per week, you are looking at $31,200 per year before taxes, so plan on somewhere between $24-$25,000 after taxes for the year. If I Google the average rent, it is around $1,468 per month. Multiply that by 12 months and you are looking at $17,616 a year. Now you are down to $6,884, if we are basing you bringing home $24,500 per year. Also,

    Let's say you are reasonably frugal at the grocery store and spend $75.00 a week in groceries living by yourself. That's another $3,900 a year in groceries. Now you are down to $2,984 for the year.

    Factor in gas to get back and forth to work over a year, car insurance, etc, etc, etc and guess what you are just as broke at the end of the year as someone making $7.25 per hour.
    $15/hr = $7.25/hr? Absolutely brilliant concept.

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