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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    But are the people currently running big businesses responsible for taking advantage of a system they had nothing to do with creating?
    depends how you define 'taking advantage'
    they're certainly benefiting from the current tax laws
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    The problem I have with it is that it's an absolute certainty that not every business using any one loophole are the ones who paid for it to exist. The people who are supposed to set the rules are the ones responsible for the rules. Fix the rules and punish people who break them. Until we get gate keepers who are actually doing their job the rest of it doesn't really matter globally.
    I disagree entirely. The nexus of the problem is big businesses influence in our political system. You have to get rid of that first. Getting rid of the politician who does their bidding because of lobbying won't matter because the next politician will do the same thing.

    To me this is like seeing a dude selling drugs to kids in a playground and saying "what we need to do to stop this is to get different kids there that won't say yes to the drugs" as opposed to getting rid of the drug dealer. Like, chances are the next kids are just going to succumb to the drug dealer's persuasion and start doing drugs.

    It's just a very bizarre solution to me to say ignore big business influence in drafting laws that benefit big business and hope that their influence won't work...
    Last edited by valade16; 02-10-2021 at 07:37 PM.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    depends how you define 'taking advantage'
    they're certainly benefiting from the current tax laws
    To me, it's ridiculous to assume these corporations are some passive part of this whole situation. Like they had no hand in drafting the bills that directly benefit them. Of course they do. They spend millions and millions a year to make sure the laws benefit them.

  4. #109
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    Where I work no matter how much experience you get paid $15 an hour. Gonna suck that amount won't be a perk for hiring people but maybe all the cheap Valve work down south will even out and come back. Should be interesting

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  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    but there has to be some sort of marker, and $15/hr is an arbitrary number
    7.25 for 40 hours a week puts someone about at the current poverty line...the federal minimum should be based on the lower cost of living areas and states and cities make their decisions from that base point

    For what it's worth (different times, just sayin') the largest increase since the 50s was 25% in 1974 when it went from $1.60 to $2.00. 15% in 1974, 12% or less since. 25% would be barely over $9 and is not enough, so even something like $11/hr would be the 2nd largest change since a federal minimum was established (went from 40 to 75 cents in 1950, 87%)
    Sure, my point is that you cant take care of yourself and others for $15 an hour. We cant expect that 42% of the population are single people sharing an apartment with a roommate. For this idea that kids/young people should be the ones on minimum wage and people of age to get married and to raise a family should be able to have jobs where they can support themselves, we actually need to have those jobs. Otherwise we cant really make the argument that minimum wage jobs are for kids.

  6. #111
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    $15/hr Minimum Wage -- Good of Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by catman View Post
    The employee only has his/her job to be concerned about, and they should be able to find another one very soon. The owner has millions of dollars at stake. If the business fails, all of the employees are out of a job and they are still responsible for their loans and other bills.
    The owner has far more at stake. They are the ones with the capital at stake.
    To paraphrase Chris Rock if you make 20 million, get a divorce, and she takes 10 youíd be alright. If you make 30,000 and she takes 15 you might have to kill the *****


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by benny01 View Post
    Sure, my point is that you cant take care of yourself and others for $15 an hour. We cant expect that 42% of the population are single people sharing an apartment with a roommate. For this idea that kids/young people should be the ones on minimum wage and people of age to get married and to raise a family should be able to have jobs where they can support themselves, we actually need to have those jobs. Otherwise we cant really make the argument that minimum wage jobs are for kids.
    Understood, but another part of this is...if Jim is making $11/hr now and John is making $15/hr now, how much should John make if minimum wage is moved to $15? And on up from there...if Jeff is making $20 while the company's minimum is $11, how much should HE make if the minimum is moved to $15?

    And people not in business don't necessarily understand that if a company pays you $15/hr, you cost them MORE than $15/hr since they pay federal taxes and those taxes increase as the wage increases. That doesn't even get into the increases in 401k matches if the employee is eligible, etc....insurance costs are based on age, not wage, so that cost doesn't change but can easily be another $1,000 a month per employee.

    An employee has a right to earn enough to live, but an employer has a right to earn a reasonable amount, too. We live in a capitalistic society and I GUARANTEE that if YOU are the business owner, you're not committing all the resources you are, going through all the stress you go through, etc only to have employees with more net income than you.
    Last edited by SiteWolf; 02-10-2021 at 08:10 PM.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    Understood, but another part of this is...if Jim is making $11/hr now and John is making $15/hr now, how much should John make if minimum wage is moved to $15? And on up from there...if Jeff is making $20 while the company's minimum is $11, how much should HE make if the minimum is moved to $15?

    And people not in business don't necessarily understand that if a company pays you $15/hr, you cost them MORE than $15/hr since they pay federal taxes and those taxes increase as the wage increases. That doesn't even get into the increases in 401k matches if the employee is eligible, etc....insurance costs are based on age, not wage, so that cost doesn't change but can easily be another $1,000 a month per employee.

    An employee has a right to earn enough to live, but an employer has a right to earn a reasonable amount, too. We live in a capitalistic society and I GUARANTEE that if YOU are the business owner, you're not committing all the resources you are, going through all the stress you go through, etc only to have employees with more net income than you.
    The employers make more than a reasonable amount lol.

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  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I disagree entirely. The nexus of the problem is big businesses influence in our political system. You have to get rid of that first. Getting rid of the politician who does their bidding because of lobbying won't matter because the next politician will do the same thing.

    To me this is like seeing a dude selling drugs to kids in a playground and saying "what we need to do to stop this is to get different kids there that won't say yes to the drugs" as opposed to getting rid of the drug dealer. Like, chances are the next kids are just going to succumb to the drug dealer's persuasion and start doing drugs.

    It's just a very bizarre solution to me to say ignore big business influence in drafting laws that benefit big business and hope that their influence won't work...
    I agree that we need to fix the system we have. I don't blame drug users for using, I don't blame companies for using the rules put forth for them to operate. We fix the system to get the money out of politics and get the openings out of the rules and things will be much better.

    If the drug dealer isn't breaking the law we need to change the law or get the parents to come get their kids away from the drug dealer. I don't blame the drug dealer in that case either.

    I never said ignore big business influence. Where did you get that? Our political system is built around it, we need to change the system so that business loses influence. I don't blame businesses for using the system we voted into existence. I don't blame the virus for using surfaces and air and your hands/eyes/lungs to get into you. If they are not breaking the rules then either they are fine or we need to change the rules.

    In F1 racing if a team takes advantage of a hole in the rules (that they are involved in writing) they are not punished the enforcement is changed so they can't keep doing it in the future.

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    To me, it's ridiculous to assume these corporations are some passive part of this whole situation. Like they had no hand in drafting the bills that directly benefit them. Of course they do. They spend millions and millions a year to make sure the laws benefit them.
    They are not passive. They are actively taking every advantage they can, but only the government can enact laws.

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by blams View Post
    The employers make more than a reasonable amount lol.

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    again, you're thinking big corps while I'm talking typical small business......and no, they don't...if they did thousands of them wouldn't have gone under in the past year
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    I agree that we need to fix the system we have. I don't blame drug users for using, I don't blame companies for using the rules put forth for them to operate. We fix the system to get the money out of politics and get the openings out of the rules and things will be much better.

    If the drug dealer isn't breaking the law we need to change the law or get the parents to come get their kids away from the drug dealer. I don't blame the drug dealer in that case either.

    I never said ignore big business influence. Where did you get that? Our political system is built around it, we need to change the system so that business loses influence. I don't blame businesses for using the system we voted into existence. I don't blame the virus for using surfaces and air and your hands/eyes/lungs to get into you. If they are not breaking the rules then either they are fine or we need to change the rules.

    In F1 racing if a team takes advantage of a hole in the rules (that they are involved in writing) they are not punished the enforcement is changed so they can't keep doing it in the future.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    They are not passive. They are actively taking every advantage they can, but only the government can enact laws.
    I guess my problem with you is your complete inability to acknowledge the businesses are influencing and literally writing the laws that are being passed. You act like they are not doing anything proactive to actually ensure these laws are passed.

    Look, you compared them to a virus, except a virus doesn't think and certainly isn't intentionally going from surface to surface. This, plus every other statement you've made, makes me think you simply literally don't understand or have some sort of mental block in acknowledging they aren't simply sitting around and taking advantage of laws passed that benefit them. They are the ones proposing the laws benefitting them, then paying off people to push those laws, then buying the votes necessary to pass those laws.

    Simply put, if you continue to think that businesses are not the prime driver of these laws, you will never solve the problem.

  13. #118
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    $15/hr Minimum Wage -- Good of Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I guess my problem with you is your complete inability to acknowledge the businesses are influencing and literally writing the laws that are being passed. You act like they are not doing anything proactive to actually ensure these laws are passed.

    Look, you compared them to a virus, except a virus doesn't think and certainly isn't intentionally going from surface to surface. This, plus every other statement you've made, makes me think you simply literally don't understand or have some sort of mental block in acknowledging they aren't simply sitting around and taking advantage of laws passed that benefit them. They are the ones proposing the laws benefitting them, then paying off people to push those laws, then buying the votes necessary to pass those laws.

    Simply put, if you continue to think that businesses are not the prime driver of these laws, you will never solve the problem.
    Itís a smoke screen. Who cares if they donít ALL have a hand in writing the laws that stack the deck in their favor. I didnít write this ****** that letís me take advantage of people. Scoots is a boot licker posing as a philosopher. Flea with more stability and less humor.
    Last edited by ewing; 02-10-2021 at 09:28 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    again, you're thinking big corps while I'm talking typical small business......and no, they don't...if they did thousands of them wouldn't have gone under in the past year
    I donít think there are down and out business owners lining skid row.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    I donít think there are down and out business owners lining skid row.


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    maybe not, but again, how much should a business owner make in comparison to individual employees when they're the one taking on all the risk.....fair if their net is less than some of their employees? Because, I guarantee there's business owners in that situation when years are lean...........and 2020 wasn't just lean, it was like <50% of normal for MANY businesses

    If things weren't already tight, why do you think so many businesses have gone under this past year? It wasn't because the owner's net went from 200k to 100k. I know a couple owners locally who maxed out their lines of credit AND remortgaged their personal homes AND took no salary and STILL had to lay people off....and those are owners who may keep their doors open.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

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