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  1. #16
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    QB Pool

    Quote Originally Posted by Heediot View Post
    Goff and Jimmy G are the exact examples I am talking about when being over optimistic about (Carson Wentz could be added) young qbs and giving them a market setting contract or close to it. They believed in what they saw from them at a young and early stage and the truth revealed itself somewhat over time. That's why I would be cautious about being overly optimistic or over investing in some young qbs based off of potential and inconsistent samples. There will be buyers remorse.

    If GMs were smart they would take a look at some of these young bs plays with a grain of salt and not act to hastily with a recency bias. Dont get me wrong recent play factors in and so does potential, but its a dangerous game when the talent/support system around these guys slowly dissolve and they are exposed for being mediocre and not living up to the billing due to their contracts effecting the help that can be provided. GMs are setting the market with top 15 type bs with potential a good chunk of the time and it will hurt them down the line.

    I agree that these new bs come in and play well and decison makers get enamored, but history tells me these exces/coaches need to learn from the past. the Mahomes and Watsons are harder to find and deserve market setting contracts, but the Bakers and Goff types end up getting the same amount (or close) of loot when their time comes. The latter guys are more plentiful.
    The QB thing just flat out is not working in the NFL today.
    You really need to treat them as their own species, separate salary structure, separate draft.
    When signing a mediocre QB kills your team's salary structure, something is not right.
    We can see with Dallas where Prescott is an average QB set to make a gazillion and Jerry Jones, rightfully, is reluctant to pull the trigger. An easy answer is to not make QB salaries count against the cap. Of course, you would need some sort of a separate QB salary cap to make this happen.

    As far as trades for QBs, Watson would cost a king's ranom.

    The thing is, it's not only QBs that are starting to screw up the trade market.
    What the Rams are doing is really starting to shake things up. They are doing an NBA style trade away all your future number 1's for a few stars now. This works, sort of, in the NBA. This can't possibly work in the NFL - a few stars, including your QB, and a zillion mediocrities surrounding them. The Rams are in real danger of being putrid for a decade once the stars on their roster age out in the next year or two.

    Whoever trades for Watson will probably have to mortgage any chance of having a decent future a few years down the road in order to get him. Interesting dilemma, but ultimately lose-lose dilemmas hurt the sport

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ortforshort View Post
    The QB thing just flat out is not working in the NFL today.
    You really need to treat them as their own species, separate salary structure, separate draft.
    When signing a mediocre QB kills your team's salary structure, something is not right.
    We can see with Dallas where Prescott is an average QB set to make a gazillion and Jerry Jones, rightfully, is reluctant to pull the trigger. An easy answer is to not make QB salaries count against the cap. Of course, you would need some sort of a separate QB salary cap to make this happen.

    As far as trades for QBs, Watson would cost a king's ranom.

    The thing is, it's not only QBs that are starting to screw up the trade market.
    What the Rams are doing is really starting to shake things up. They are doing an NBA style trade away all your future number 1's for a few stars now. This works, sort of, in the NBA. This can't possibly work in the NFL - a few stars, including your QB, and a zillion mediocrities surrounding them. The Rams are in real danger of being putrid for a decade once the stars on their roster age out in the next year or two.

    Whoever trades for Watson will probably have to mortgage any chance of having a decent future a few years down the road in order to get him. Interesting dilemma, but ultimately lose-lose dilemmas hurt the sport
    I disagree on several points here.

    First off, excluding the QB from the salary cap would probably only create more issues than fix them. It certainly would eliminate a lot of parity from the league. The NFL thrives on hope, and if fans have hope that their team can be a contender for a couple of years if they find a merely solid QB in the draft to play on his cheap rookie contract, then that is good for the NFL as an entertainment product.

    If good QB prospects keep entering the draft as they are right now, it will only drive down the price of non-elite veteran QBs. A former MVP played on the veteran minimum base salary + incentives last year.

    Garoppolo, Goff, Wentz if anything show that you can pay QBs expecting future potential and still not be hamstrung for years if they don't pan out.

    I think Dak would have certainly been worth that gamble as well. The Cowboys might end up having to let him leave as a free agent, while the Eagles could get a 1st round pick for Wentz.

    If you're picking in the 20s, you can trade away your 1st round picks without dooming yourself for a decade. The real value in draft picks lies in their cost-controlled contract anyway. You can hit on a blue chip player but will have to pay him after 5 years anyway. So why not remove chance and trade for established star players? You can still fill out the rest of your roster with 2nd-7th round picks. I think people forget that the Rams have already been trading away their 1st for 4 seasons and are still a very good team.
    Last edited by QB_Eagles; 02-07-2021 at 11:35 AM.

  3. #18
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    All I'll say on this QB contract thing is John Lynch proved his hiring a good one with that Garappolo contract. Lotta big upfront money in the form of a roster bonus, so it frees them up to get out of the contract without a major cap penalty.

    Well that and the discipline to not restructure.

  4. #19
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    The Rams

    Quote Originally Posted by QB_Eagles View Post
    I disagree on several points here.

    First off, excluding the QB from the salary cap would probably only create more issues than fix them. It certainly would eliminate a lot of parity from the league. The NFL thrives on hope, and if fans have hope that their team can be a contender for a couple of years if they find a merely solid QB in the draft to play on his cheap rookie contract, then that is good for the NFL as an entertainment product.

    If good QB prospects keep entering the draft as they are right now, it will only drive down the price of non-elite veteran QBs. A former MVP played on the veteran minimum base salary + incentives last year.

    Garoppolo, Goff, Wentz if anything show that you can pay QBs expecting future potential and still not be hamstrung for years if they don't pan out.

    I think Dak would have certainly been worth that gamble as well. The Cowboys might end up having to let him leave as a free agent, while the Eagles could get a 1st round pick for Wentz.

    If you're picking in the 20s, you can trade away your 1st round picks without dooming yourself for a decade. The real value in draft picks lies in their cost-controlled contract anyway. You can hit on a blue chip player but will have to pay him after 5 years anyway. So why not remove chance and trade for established star players? You can still fill out the rest of your roster with 2nd-7th round picks. I think people forget that the Rams have already been trading away their 1st for 4 seasons and are still a very good team.
    The Rams are certainly an interesting experiment. They've got a lot of moxie that's for sure.
    They've got maybe half a dozen studs who are eatiing up most of their cap. They got them by trading away a bunch of first round picks. So the question is with limited draft capital over the last few years and for the next few years, can the Rams fill out a decent roster around their group of studs?

    If they can, the NFL will sure be different moving forward.
    If they can't, they're doomed - cap strapped and no cheap studly help from the draft.
    If Snead and McVay are as good as they think they are, maybe they'll pull it off.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ortforshort View Post
    The Rams are certainly an interesting experiment. They've got a lot of moxie that's for sure.
    They've got maybe half a dozen studs who are eatiing up most of their cap. They got them by trading away a bunch of first round picks. So the question is with limited draft capital over the last few years and for the next few years, can the Rams fill out a decent roster around their group of studs?

    If they can, the NFL will sure be different moving forward.
    If they can't, they're doomed - cap strapped and no cheap studly help from the draft.
    If Snead and McVay are as good as they think they are, maybe they'll pull it off.
    The thing is they are still getting great production out of guys on their rookie contracts despite not having made a 1st round selection since 2017.

    Not a general recipe for success, but it is working for them.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heediot View Post
    Faded may be too far, but I think teams were catching on to his tendencies. We will see how he responds to more adjustments after teams have more film.

    That's always been my gripe with new/young qbs that have success right off the bat, they have to prove to me how they handle the oppositions adjustment and then the consistency will show itself a few years down the line with the a bigger sample.

    Wasn't convinced of Lamar, Baker to name a few in the past few years. Still not convinced about Baker, Lamar will be a pro bowl regular season guy but not sure how deep he can take a team in the loffs. Even Josh Allen I am not totally convinced about. I was more lenient on him vs others only because people were so quick to bash him, but I don't think hell have the same consistency as he has had this year throughout his career.

    A lot of these guys just end u being derek carr and on the higher end Matthew stafford types, which isn't the end of the world, but they are over hyped and have too much optimism on them early on.

    I just like Burrows feel, fearlessness and approach to the game. He has the physical tools and mental game imo to boot. Lets just hope cincy doesn't mess it u. Yeah the sample on him is small, but I got a good feeling about this dude based on 'it' factor and my instincts. I never thought Baker had the 'it' factor as many others did when he was coming out of college but I think Burrows factor is legit.
    I was one of the bigger Josh Allen detractors but I have to say... watching him I do feel differently. He really has grown as a player and I think he'll maintain his level of play (stats will vary year to year but I think he'll be a top 10 QB for awhile).
    The Baker has come. Believe the hype.


  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ortforshort View Post
    There are 9 stud quarterbacks out there that are coveted by everbody:

    Patrick Mahomes - Kansas City
    Aaron Rogers - Green Bay
    Tom Brady - Tampa Bay
    Russell Wilson - Seattle
    Deshawn Watson - Houston

    Joe Burrow - Cincinnati
    Justin Herbert - LA Chargers
    Kyler Murray - Arizona

    Andrew Luck - Indianapolis retired

    There are 9 more out there that are "passable" - teams feel they have a shot with them and aren't looking to move them:
    Josh Allen - Buffalo
    Matthew Stafford - LA Rams
    Kirk Cousins - Minnesota
    Matt Ryan - Atlanta
    Derek Carr - Las Vegas
    Baker Mayfield - Cleveland
    Lamar Jackson - Baltimore
    Ryan Tannehill - Tennessee
    Dak Prescott - Dallas

    Two of the above appear to be in play for 2021 - Watson and Prescott with rumors swirling about a few of the others - Rogers, Ryan and Carr mostly

    There are five QB prospects in the draft this year.
    Trevor Lawrence is considered a stud and will go to Jacksonville
    The other four are overrated because of the recent success of Murray, Burrow and Herbert. These three are unicorns and those who think that Zach Wilson, Josh Fields, Trey Lance or Mac Jones are automatically going to turn into one of those unicorns are in for a rude awakening.

    The rest of the teams, 14 of them, have QB's that have no chance at a super bowl next year and won't be getting one thru the draft. This makes for a very interesting off season with the five top guys who are the subjects of all the rumors

    14 Teams who have QBs that don't make the cut:
    New England - Cam Newton
    Jets - Sam Darnold (the door isn't completely closed on him)
    Miami - Tua Tagovailoa (the door isn't completely closed on him either)
    Indianapolis - Jacoby Brissett
    Pittsburgh - Ben Roethlisberger
    Denver - Drew Lock
    Giants - Daniel Jones (the door isn't completely closed on him)
    Washington - Taylor Heinicke or Alex Smith
    Philadelphia - Carson Wentz (the door isn't completely closed on him)
    Chicago - Mitch Trubisky
    Detroit - Jared Goff
    Carolina - Teddy Bridgewater
    New Orleans - Jameis Winston or Taysom Hill
    San Francisco - Jimmy Garoppolo (the door isn't completely closed on him)

    Who goes where this offseason?

    Cam Newton leaves New England and ends up in Washington playing for The Football Team

    Sam D'Arnold ends up in Houston via trade; Watson ends up in New York

    Tua stays in Miami

    Jacoby Brissett to the Broncos

    Ben Roethlisberger retires

    Drew Lock to Indy

    Daniel Jones stays in New York

    Football Team gets rid of Alex; Taylor becomes backup QB

    Carson Wentz ends up in San Francisco via trade; Jalen Hurts ends up as your starter

    Trubisky stays in Chicago

    Goff I think stays in Detroit instead of being a rental

    Bridgewater stays in Carolina

    New Orleans sticks with Jameis as their starter; Taysom is their backup

    Jimmy G goes back to New England reunited with Belichick
    Last edited by Tg11; 02-07-2021 at 07:58 PM.

  8. #23
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  9. #24
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    Mahomes

    Quote Originally Posted by Heediot View Post
    ooops
    Being a Jets fan, I've spent three years watching Sam Darnold face what Mahomes faced in the Super Bowl and what Josh Allen faced in the AFC Championship game.

    The question I have is if Kansas City fans were like Jets fans, would they be looking to replace Mahomes? The same with the Bills fans and Allen.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ortforshort View Post
    There are 9 stud quarterbacks out there that are coveted by everbody:

    Patrick Mahomes - Kansas City
    Aaron Rogers - Green Bay
    Tom Brady - Tampa Bay
    Russell Wilson - Seattle
    Deshawn Watson - Houston

    Joe Burrow - Cincinnati
    Justin Herbert - LA Chargers
    Kyler Murray - Arizona

    Andrew Luck - Indianapolis retired

    There are 9 more out there that are "passable" - teams feel they have a shot with them and aren't looking to move them:
    Josh Allen - Buffalo
    Matthew Stafford - LA Rams
    Kirk Cousins - Minnesota
    Matt Ryan - Atlanta
    Derek Carr - Las Vegas
    Baker Mayfield - Cleveland
    Lamar Jackson - Baltimore
    Ryan Tannehill - Tennessee
    Dak Prescott - Dallas

    Two of the above appear to be in play for 2021 - Watson and Prescott with rumors swirling about a few of the others - Rogers, Ryan and Carr mostly

    There are five QB prospects in the draft this year.
    Trevor Lawrence is considered a stud and will go to Jacksonville
    The other four are overrated because of the recent success of Murray, Burrow and Herbert. These three are unicorns and those who think that Zach Wilson, Josh Fields, Trey Lance or Mac Jones are automatically going to turn into one of those unicorns are in for a rude awakening.

    The rest of the teams, 14 of them, have QB's that have no chance at a super bowl next year and won't be getting one thru the draft. This makes for a very interesting off season with the five top guys who are the subjects of all the rumors

    14 Teams who have QBs that don't make the cut:
    New England - Cam Newton
    Jets - Sam Darnold (the door isn't completely closed on him)
    Miami - Tua Tagovailoa (the door isn't completely closed on him either)
    Indianapolis - Jacoby Brissett
    Pittsburgh - Ben Roethlisberger
    Denver - Drew Lock
    Giants - Daniel Jones (the door isn't completely closed on him)
    Washington - Taylor Heinicke or Alex Smith
    Philadelphia - Carson Wentz (the door isn't completely closed on him)
    Chicago - Mitch Trubisky
    Detroit - Jared Goff
    Carolina - Teddy Bridgewater
    New Orleans - Jameis Winston or Taysom Hill
    San Francisco - Jimmy Garoppolo (the door isn't completely closed on him)

    Who goes where this offseason?

    Instead a more realistic list of which quarterbacks go where:

    Cam Newton- More realistic destinations for Cam would be either staying in New England or going to Denver Broncos or the Atlanta Falcons. So between these 3 teams, I say Cam ends up in Denver.

    Sam D'Arnold- Ends up in Dallas with the Cowboys

    Tua Tagovailoa- Stays in Miami

    Jacoby Brissett- Ends up in Washington playing for The Football Team

    Roethlisberger comes back to Pittsburgh for one more year and then retires.

    Drew Lock leaves Denver and as far as where Drew Lock ends up...he ends up in Atlanta as a Falcon

    Daniel Jones stays in New York

    Washington sticks with Alex Smith as their starter and Brissett as their backup

    Carson Wentz ends up in Indy as Rivers' replacement as the new face of Indianapolis football

    Trubisky stays in Chicago

    Bridgewater stays in Carolina

    Jimmy G leaves San Francisco and ends up in New England back with Belichick

    New Orleans turns the starter job of QB over to Taysom Hill and Jameis still as a backup

    THE BIG ONE??? The big signing Dak Prescott leaves Dallas and ends up in San Francisco as a 49er

    Deshaun Watson ends up in New York playing for the Jets

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tg11 View Post
    Instead a more realistic list of which quarterbacks go where:

    Cam Newton- More realistic destinations for Cam would be either staying in New England or going to Denver Broncos or the Atlanta Falcons. So between these 3 teams, I say Cam ends up in Denver.

    Sam D'Arnold- Ends up in Dallas with the Cowboys

    Tua Tagovailoa- Stays in Miami

    Jacoby Brissett- Ends up in Washington playing for The Football Team

    Roethlisberger comes back to Pittsburgh for one more year and then retires.

    Drew Lock leaves Denver and as far as where Drew Lock ends up...he ends up in Atlanta as a Falcon

    Daniel Jones stays in New York

    Washington sticks with Alex Smith as their starter and Brissett as their backup

    Carson Wentz ends up in Indy as Rivers' replacement as the new face of Indianapolis football

    Trubisky stays in Chicago

    Bridgewater stays in Carolina

    Jimmy G leaves San Francisco and ends up in New England back with Belichick

    New Orleans turns the starter job of QB over to Taysom Hill and Jameis still as a backup

    THE BIG ONE??? The big signing Dak Prescott leaves Dallas and ends up in San Francisco as a 49er

    Deshaun Watson ends up in New York playing for the Jets
    Denver isn't a destination spot for Cam lol. Young team that wants a solution for 5+ years at QB. That's not Cam.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by mgjohnson7851 View Post
    Denver isn't a destination spot for Cam lol. Young team that wants a solution for 5+ years at QB. That's not Cam.
    I'm so torn on where I want Cam to go, but I can honestly say PSD would be so much fun if he were to go to DEN or NE

  13. #28
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    Allen likely to regress after an outlier year, but putting him behind Burrow, Herbert and Murray is funny.

    Also funny given Seattle was going to trade Wilson to the Browns for the #1 pick to take Josh Allen. And Dorsey was going to draft Allen #1 overall to the Browns, seeing him as comparable to Mahomes who he had picked for the Chiefs.
    Dak: 17,634 @ 66.0%, 7.7 per att, 106+24 TD, 40 INT+34 FMB, 97.3 Rate
    Wentz: 16,811 @ 62.7%, 6.7 per att, 113+8 TD, 50 INT+58 FMB, 89.2 Rate

    Quote Originally Posted by manbearchef View Post
    I'll eat a shoe if BB is still coaching in 5 years.
    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    Sticking to traditions:

    IF Wentz is a Philadelphia Eagle in 2021, he will be the starter. If not, bye bye PSD, I'll leave.
    "Hater" is a term used by weak minded people in the face of legitimate criticism.
    -Scott van Pelt

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by mgjohnson7851 View Post
    Denver isn't a destination spot for Cam lol. Young team that wants a solution for 5+ years at QB. That's not Cam.
    Well Denver needs a quarterback and I would take Cam over Lock any day

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tg11 View Post
    Well Denver needs a quarterback and I would take Cam over Lock any day
    But why, though? Cam is almost 32 and on the downfall. Lock can still grow, potentially. There so many other better options for Denver that don't involve Cam, looks like, to me.

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