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  1. #1
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    GW Bush vs. Trump

    Trump released a statement today talking about how takes pride in being the only recent president not to start a new war. I'm not terribly interested in that, but it got me thinking again about GW Bush, who for the bulk of Trump's Presidency I remained convinced probably was a more destructive president. So it got me thinking again. And what better time to talk legacies than doing so very prematurely on his last day in office.

    But I'm sitting here comparing these two and I'm feeling like I still think Bush's presidency was ultimately more catastrophic for this country than Trump's will be. The last few weeks definitely have me more uncertain. And as I said, a lot of this still has to play out.

    But the case against Bush is strong. For starters, I think Trump arose in large part to Bush era politics, nationalism, punditry and dog-whistling. I think the wars he started and his economic policies robbed my generation of economic opportunity. One of those wars was started off a lie. A half a million Iraqi civilians died because of that lie. An absolute nightmare of a foreign policy tenure as one could ever have. Worse yet, we've just accepted it. War is normal now. There isn't a viable anti-war movement in this country, and this country has a robust history of such movement. This death-spiral of inequality has so much to do with his economic policies. He opened up an off-shore torture camp and sanctioned torture! He unleashed a massive spy program. The DoD absolutely ballooned under him. He helped set the stage for the 2008 financial crisis. It just goes on and on. I'm already rambling.

    8 years of Obama couldn't unwind much of any of that.


    I don't need to point out how little I think of Donald Trump. I have no idea what comes of Trump's movement and his death cult. Maybe right-wing violence surges off the charts. Maybe he paves the way for a "competent Trump" like Hawley or some other ghoul, who unleashes Trumpism on us, but effectively. Maybe his deregulatory efforts doom us even more. I don't even know how the Covid nightmare ends! Or maybe the opposite?!?! Maybe right-wing politics takes a hit. Maybe Democratic leadership unleashes voter rights programs and kills gerrymandering and never lose an election again because Joe Biden did so much good and materially improved so many people's lives (yeah...). And so on. We don't know.

    But I know George W Bush. And man, that guy sucked ****! And I hope no one lets 4 years of Trump distract you for the wretchedness of that administration. Something so miserable and toxic that most Republicans even get it.

    So am I still crazy for thinking that when all is said and done, George W Bush's presidency might still stink most?
    HELLO

  2. #2
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    Trump declared war on every american institution. He did far more damage than Bush could dream of.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by benny01 View Post
    Trump declared war on every american institution. He did far more damage than Bush could dream of.
    Yeah I though Bush was the worst but Trump while not starting any wars he destroyed democracy and from now on we are going to live in a society where everything is fake news and you canít concede if you lost an election.

    Bush got us into typical bull ****, but Trump has gotten us into ******** this country has never seen before where a war at home could start because of his rhetoric.

  4. #4
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    In terms of actual policies and decisions, the Bush II administration was probably worse.

    But benny has a point: Trump has done serious ó maybe irreparable ó damage to the fundamental institutions of American government (and his policies and decisions sucked too).

  5. #5
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    I think Bush2 is easily the worst President of my lifetime (Nixon and Trump included). Trump is a blow hard divisive ***-hat but he was incredibly ineffective, Bush was fairly effective and pushed/passed some of the worst legislation in US history.

  6. #6
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    The thing about Trump is that the disaster which occurred under him was so easily avoidable. The numbers should be one tenth of what they are but he blew such an obvious and clear decision that an inconvenience turned into a disaster. We lost on both lives and economy and the biggest reason for that was because significant population of our country refused to take minimal steps to help control the spread, thanks to the idiotic rambling of one donald dumb ***.

    Bush was more of the norm. Kill a bunch of brown people for oil. That's normal american policy. Trumps was kill a bunch of Americans for ego. That's not normal american policy.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  7. #7
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    Can't help myself, I told you he would be the worst president during our lifetime base on his personality and his history some three years ago. Nothing ever goes well when you have a crazy self-delusional person at the wheel.
    Last edited by WES445; 01-19-2021 at 08:17 PM.
    A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom.

    Martin Luther King.

  8. #8
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    The most powerful tool a president has is his ability to move and influence Americans. Obama singing amazing grace at a kid's funeral moved people. It may have quiet the fury of Blacks over cops misconduct at that time. FDR's "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself" moved and strengthen the nation during the great depression and wartime.

    Trump moved us against each other for his own political gains with no hand-rails or boundaries. As Benny said, he wasn't above destroying institutions, traditions, people, or the public good if it suited his purpose. One could guess this by his using money from his charity to buy a big arse painting of himself and numerous other things. Plus, he has no sense of shame like when he bragged about sexually assaulting women or sneaking in on teenage girls dressing during one of his beauty contests.

    and his business ability is more like the producers in Mel Brooks' The Producers" than John Ford.
    Last edited by WES445; 01-19-2021 at 09:09 PM.
    A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom.

    Martin Luther King.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by WES445 View Post
    The most powerful tool a president has is his ability to move and influence Americans. Obama singing amazing grace at a kid's funeral moved people. It may have quiet the fury of Blacks over cops misconduct at that time. FDR's "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself" moved and strengthen the nation during the great depression and wartime.

    Trump moved us against each other for his own political gains with no hand-rails or boundaries. As Benny said, he wasn't above destroying institutions, traditions, people, or the public good if it suited his purpose. One could guess this by his using money from his charity to buy a big arse painting of himself and numerous other things. Plus, he has no sense of shame like when he bragged about sexually assaulting women or sneaking in on teenage girls dressing during one of his beauty contests.

    and his business ability is more like the producers in Mel Brooks' The Producers" than John Ford.
    I agree. Unfortunately Trump was just another level of abrasive in playing the same game politicians have been playing and will continue to play. Fear sells and it's not going to change today.

    And, while Trump was hugely divisive at least he didn't pass things like the Patriot act and create a whole new wasteful organization like DHS ... in fact, other than talking not stop crap Trump didn't really do much of anything at all.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    I agree. Unfortunately Trump was just another level of abrasive in playing the same game politicians have been playing and will continue to play. Fear sells and it's not going to change today.

    And, while Trump was hugely divisive at least he didn't pass things like the Patriot act and create a whole new wasteful organization like DHS ... in fact, other than talking not stop crap Trump didn't really do much of anything at all.
    He took the worst trait of politicians and took it to the max. I am not giving him credit for anything since his negative far out weights his positive. It is like giving credit to Capone for funding soup kitchens during the depression.
    Last edited by WES445; 01-20-2021 at 03:51 PM.
    A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom.

    Martin Luther King.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    I agree. Unfortunately Trump was just another level of abrasive in playing the same game politicians have been playing and will continue to play. Fear sells and it's not going to change today.

    And, while Trump was hugely divisive at least he didn't pass things like the Patriot act and create a whole new wasteful organization like DHS ... in fact, other than talking not stop crap Trump didn't really do much of anything at all.
    Because he had a **** load of useless idiots to work for him. Bush had smart evil people working for him.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sick Of It All View Post
    Because he had a **** load of useless idiots to work for him. Bush had smart evil people working for him.
    I'm also not sure there is anything more "wasteful" than the Space Force.
    <><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
    <><><><><><><>
    <><><><>

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhino17 View Post
    I'm also not sure there is anything more "wasteful" than the Space Force.


    Does seem like a lot of money for taxpayers to pay for a poorly applied Netflix show
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    I agree. Unfortunately Trump was just another level of abrasive in playing the same game politicians have been playing and will continue to play. Fear sells and it's not going to change today.

    And, while Trump was hugely divisive at least he didn't pass things like the Patriot act and create a whole new wasteful organization like DHS ... in fact, other than talking not stop crap Trump didn't really do much of anything at all.
    Bush was more of a figurehead for the neocons and establishment policies. Let's face it, he took his marching orders from his handlers. Every decision he made was guided by them, all who escaped the public wrath and when on continuing working in government. You just can't continue to talk about how dumb he is and then turn around to make him the mastermind of the Iraq invasion. The failure of his administration falls more on those neocons who pushed a more rabid imperialistic policy after the downfall of the Soviet Union. Yes, I know that happen during the Reagan years but that is where that policy was born. Being the last standing superpower embolden this attitude while 9/11 enable them. They were able to lie to the enrage American public about Iraq and get away with it...for a while. I think this when Americans started distrusting the typical establishment politicians. And gave an atypical candidate who seems to be talking about change a path into the oval office. After him, another atypical candidate who seems to be talking about change beats establishment politicians. The democrats didn't read the room before that election in 2016. Sure, Hillary being a woman would seem to be atypical but she was an establishment politician with a lot of baggage and the name Clinton.

    Trump's failures were all on him with the Republican party being dragged along because of his strength within the Republican base. Along as Mitch and the boys got their agenda passed, they put up with him. Plus he provides a fertile ground to push FOX and the republican's favorite rally cry, protecting white culture from being soil and weaken by multi-culturalism. Which led to armed protest, a kid shooting protesters, a large scale race riot in Charlotteville, and ended with the storming of the Capitol Building. Our two-party long history of enraging their bases against each other came home to roost with Trump as the maestro. Yes, Bush cause mega harm on the international scene but that is more correctable than Trump damaging our American unity, trust in government, and chasing some into the Twilight Zone which I don't think they are coming back. We went from Obama being born in Kenya to Satanist Democrat running kiddie sex rings in the basement of a neighborhood pizza shop. Trump fed and sped up our disunity for his personal gain. That is the kicker to my decisions. At least, dimwitted Bush thought he was pushing American policy not his own personal gain like Trump. Who else would disrespect our election tradition and encourage radicals to take back their country? Breeding this insurrection has never been done by a past president. Bush's actions? Crap, son that is the American way when it comes to foreign affairs. How many wars have we had that started over a lie?

    I can't fully condemn Bush for those reasons. He was the establishment sponsor president. We should have spent more time rooting out the neocons' advisors and their policies out of government instead of placing the full blame on Bush the dummy. He was more the fall guy than the mastermind. Trump was a loose cannon with no controls placed on him by his party, lacking in integrity or morals and be damn the constitution. I think those factors made him a more dangerous president and the worst. Where Bush's Americana was troubling and leery to the world. Trump made us a laughing stock. Being laughing stock damage our reputations more with our allies and let our enemies gain ground on us at the international level, especially China. You can't fear and respect someone if you are laughing at their antics.

    I really am more pissed with the system that spawns these guys more than them.
    Last edited by WES445; 01-21-2021 at 02:20 AM.
    A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom.

    Martin Luther King.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by WES445 View Post
    The most powerful tool a president has is his ability to move and influence Americans. Obama singing amazing grace at a kid's funeral moved people.
    In this sense, Obamaís administration was the biggest disappointment.

    We definitely knew what we were getting with Trump ó an unprinicpled, narcissistic dolt. He just dialed it up once he had the power.

    We probably knew what we were getting with Bush II ó a good old, very limited frat boy, riding high on the family legacy.

    We hoped for something more out of Obama. Didnít get it ó more likely our fault than his though.

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