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  1. #1006
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Honey, you wish you were capable of "making fun of me." All you do is take every opportunity to try and troll a single playerósomeone I remind you doesn't even play for the Rockets anymore. It's not bullying. It's just pathetic trolling.


    OK, I'll bite on this. Assist-turnover ratio is a garbage stat, because people like you make assumptions that it's all about playmaking and poor passes. But it's not, because it doesn't account for offensive fouls, something Harden usually is toward the top of the league in.

    Let's compare James to someone like Steph Curry for a minute using a different statistic: assists per bad pass from 82games.com. Compare Harden's last season in Houston in (19-20) versus Curry's last full season in Golden State (18-19). What do we find? That Harden's assists per bad pass (4.7) is higher than Curry's (3.9) and that Harden unsurprisingly committed significantly more offensive fouls (52) than Curry that season (14).

    (Additional note here: But it's also really hard to account for the times Harden drove to the basket and had it stripped or lost it on the way to the bucket. I don't have the time to compare number of drives between the two, but I can pretty much guarantee Harden's dwarfs Curry's.)

    Given that Harden is taking way fewer shots and has been more of a facilitator this season and less of a go-to scorer in Brooklyn, it's pretty easy to to see why the guy is posting a career high AST-TO ratio (2.73). His offensive fouls (8 total in Brooklyn) are way down as his FGA are the lowest they've been since his last season in OKC. If you drive less, you turn the ball over less, and few players in the league drove more and drew more contact over the last decade than James Harden.


    See all my notes above. You're using a single stat to try to ignore literally dozens of others that prove how dominant Harden has been over the last decade. And I just showed how imperfect turnovers are a statistic to try and prove poor playmaking.

    Also, Melo is a terrible comparison. Because Harden drops 30 on a fraction of the shots while also averaging 8-11 assists per game and leading some of the league's most efficient offenses. There's a reason why, despite being toward the top of the league in turnovers every year, every offensive statistic on the planet still recognizes the man's greatness. Like, for example, that he's been top 5 in the entire league in OWS for 10 straight seasonsóyou know, a stat that accounts for turnovers.

    So, please, get over yourself with your assist-turnover rhetoric. Now that he's proving his dominance in that statistic, you're going to have find some other nitpicky crap to try and hang your anti-Harden hat on.
    Not gonna lie, I stopped reading right after this. I tried responding in a genuine fashion to your last attack but it's just not worth my while anymore. Stop crying when I make fun of you because you bring it on yourself. Enjoy your shrine and beard trimmings you probably stole from Ames Harden's trash bin.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  2. #1007
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    Dude, I'm trying to gain insight as to why you want to trade Lowry. Can you please tell me what you would expect to get from Philly?
    Thybulle
    Bradley
    Scott - expiring
    Green - expiring
    1st round pick

    If weíre trading with the 6ers that would be my preferred package.

    As Iíve said before I want to trade Lowry and get some assets in return before losing him for nothing. And the idea of bringing him back is not a realistic one considering all factors.
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 02-25-2021 at 03:06 PM.

  3. #1008
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    Thybulle
    Bradley
    Scott - expiring
    Green - expiring
    1st round pick

    If weíre trading with the 6ers that would be my preferred package.
    Do you plan on extending Green or Scott beyond this season? If not then it's essentially Thybulle, Bradley and a 1st moving forward. That doesn't really do a whole lot for the future of the Raptors don't you think? I get there's a possibility that Lowry leaves. However, if he stays for even 1 more season then I think that hold more value than that package from Philly.

    Lowry is having a bloody great year and is showing no signs of slowing down. He keeps adapting his game and continues to play at an all star level.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  4. #1009
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    Not gonna lie, I stopped reading right after this. I tried responding in a genuine fashion to your last attack but it's just not worth my while anymore. Stop crying when I make fun of you because you bring it on yourself. Enjoy your shrine and beard trimmings you probably stole from Ames Harden's trash bin.
    And this is why I don't respect you. You refuse to have an actual basketball conversation, and you completely ignored all of the data and effort that went into that post. You go out of your way to instigate, then you can't handle it getting dished back to you, much less hold your own in a legitimate basketball conversation that uses facts, stats and context.

    Do me a favor, chief. Just don't respond to my posts moving forward. You have no interest in discussing basketball and having an actual discussion, and it's not worth my time to correct all your sad, pitiful attempts to troll Harden. Let's just both ignore one another, shall we?


  5. #1010
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    And this is why I don't respect you. You refuse to have an actual basketball conversation, and you completely ignored all of the data and effort that went into that post. You go out of your way to instigate, then you can't handle it getting dished back to you, much less hold your own in a legitimate basketball conversation that uses facts, stats and context.

    Do me a favor, chief. Just don't respond to my posts moving forward. You have no interest in discussing basketball and having an actual discussion, and it's not worth my time to correct all your sad, pitiful attempts to troll Harden. Let's just both ignore one another, shall we?
    You don't respect me because I'm way smarter than you. Can't wait for you to remind me about how you're a sports journalist like that somehow makes you more knowledgable than I, Mr. Alex Jones. All you did was mock my AST:TO ratio point without even paying any mind to it. With the Melo analogy I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. You understand the correlation I was trying to make but much like the AST:TO ratio, you won't go anywhere near the point I'm trying to make. Your idea of a conversation is ignoring what I say only to counter with points that are beside the topic being talked about. That's not conversation. That's diversion.

    Enjoy kicking and screaming I'm just admiring my Raps championship hat right now
    Last edited by R. Johnson#3; 02-25-2021 at 03:17 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  6. #1011
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    You don't respect me because I'm way smarter than you. All you did was mock my AST:TO ratio point without even paying any mind to it. With the Melo analogy I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. You understand the correlation I was trying to make but much like the AST:TO ratio, you won't go anywhere near the point I'm trying to make.

    Enjoy kicking and screaming I'm just admiring my Raps championship hat right now
    Welcome to my ignore list!


  7. #1012
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Welcome to my ignore list!
    Said Russell Westbrook to Ames Harden
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  8. #1013
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    Do you plan on extending Green or Scott beyond this season? If not then it's essentially Thybulle, Bradley and a 1st moving forward. That doesn't really do a whole lot for the future of the Raptors don't you think? I get there's a possibility that Lowry leaves. However, if he stays for even 1 more season then I think that hold more value than that package from Philly.

    Lowry is having a bloody great year and is showing no signs of slowing down. He keeps adapting his game and continues to play at an all star level.
    Lowry is an expiring contract what do you expect?

    You donít think another first rounder in a deep draft would help? Consider the fact that Fred Vanvleet went undrafted, Davis went undrafted, Siakam was a late pick gem. We would have two first round picks in a draft thatís suppose to be pretty dam good. You could combine those picks and move up, or you can find two good young players to develop in our system like we did with FVV, Siakam, and are doing with Davis, and now Flynn.

    Beyond that, Thybulle would become apart of our rotation instantly as he is a really good diffender, and is developing in to a nice little player. Heís also under a very team friendly contract for another two years after this one.

    Bradley is a young big that we can develop in our system as well, and god knows we need a big man in the front court beyond Baynes.

    Green, I would resign if he was willing to come back for cheap other wise he can ring chase and be a journeyman. He started his decline before he even got to Toronto, and I rather have the cap space.

    Mike Scott is a serviceable depth piece but, would rather keep the cap space and just let him move on in free agency as well.

    So yeah Bradley as a developmental big man, Thybulle as a nice young prospect that can be apart of the core and is on a cheap and team friendly contract. And the mid to late first round pick.

    Makes a ton of sense for both teams IMO.

  9. #1014
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    Lowry is an expiring contract what do you expect?

    You donít think another first rounder in a deep draft would help? Consider the fact that Fred Vanvleet went undrafted, Davis went undrafted, Siakam was a late pick gem. We would have two first round picks in a draft thatís suppose to be pretty dam good. You could combine those picks and move up, or you can find two good young players to develop in our system like we did with FVV, Siakam, and are doing with Davis, and now Flynn.

    Beyond that, Thybulle would become apart of our rotation instantly as he is a really good diffender, and is developing in to a nice little player. Heís also under a very team friendly contract for another two years after this one.

    Bradley is a young big that we can develop in our system as well, and god knows we need a big man in the front court beyond Baynes.

    Green, I would resign if he was willing to come back for cheap other wise he can ring chase and be a journeyman. He started his decline before he even got to Toronto, and I rather have the cap space.

    Mike Scott is a serviceable depth piece but, would rather keep the cap space and just let him move on in free agency as well.

    So yeah Bradley as a developmental big man, Thybulle as a nice young prospect that can be apart of the core and is on a cheap and team friendly contract. And the mid to late first round pick.

    Makes a ton of sense for both teams IMO.
    I'm with you, man. I've always been a huge Lowry fan and him retiring in Toronto seems fitting, but if you could get some legitimate picks or prospects out of that, you do that in a heartbeat if you're the Raptors. Toronto's heading in the wrong direction, and all keeping Lowry does is keep them in that dreaded 6-8 seed no-man's land spot (at best) that no franchise wants to be in.

    On the bright side, the Raptors are pretty much guaranteed to hit .500 tomorrow night after an easy beatdown of the Rockets.


  10. #1015
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    Lowry is an expiring contract what do you expect?

    You donít think another first rounder in a deep draft would help? Consider the fact that Fred Vanvleet went undrafted, Davis went undrafted, Siakam was a late pick gem. We would have two first round picks in a draft thatís suppose to be pretty dam good. You could combine those picks and move up, or you can find two good young players to develop in our system like we did with FVV, Siakam, and are doing with Davis, and now Flynn.

    Beyond that, Thybulle would become apart of our rotation instantly as he is a really good diffender, and is developing in to a nice little player. Heís also under a very team friendly contract for another two years after this one.

    Bradley is a young big that we can develop in our system as well, and god knows we need a big man in the front court beyond Baynes.

    Green, I would resign if he was willing to come back for cheap other wise he can ring chase and be a journeyman. He started his decline before he even got to Toronto, and I rather have the cap space.

    Mike Scott is a serviceable depth piece but, would rather keep the cap space and just let him move on in free agency as well.

    So yeah Bradley as a developmental big man, Thybulle as a nice young prospect that can be apart of the core and is on a cheap and team friendly contract. And the mid to late first round pick.

    Makes a ton of sense for both teams IMO.
    Nothing of immediate or future significance. This is 100% why I want to keep Lowry and not trade him.

    The packages we came up with were Beasley and Davis or Bradley, Thybulle, 1st and filler. This is the reason I don't want to trade him. Kyle Lowry himself will be more beneficial to the Raps moving forward than any package he could get in return.
    Last edited by R. Johnson#3; 02-25-2021 at 03:47 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  11. #1016
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    Nothing of immediate or future significance. This is 100% why I want to keep Lowry and not trade him.

    The packages we came up with were Beasley and Davis or Bradley, Thybulle, 1st and filler. This is the reason I don't want to trade him. Kyle Lowry himself will be more beneficial to the Raps moving forward than any package he could get in return.
    Right but heís turning 35. Surely you understand the concept of window. Lowry no longer fits ours.

    When you say moving fwd are you suggesting keeping him for another year and then revisiting this next season? Because itís an inevitable decision we gotta make. And Iím of the belief that we could still get useful assets to benefit the team.

    I think youíre looking for equal value but that is almost impossible because while he is still playing at a high level the question remains how much longer will he sustain it? 2 years? And what sort of contract are you giving him to stay for those extra two years? Are we ok with Lowry, Siakam, FVV, OG eating all our cap space? Because that would be the situation and we would have no space left to improve the team around that core. We currently hover 500 and desperately need a big which we canít seem to land. So is the plan to remain status quote?

    also I think he would be so happy with a trade to Philly. He would get a chance to compete for a ship and retire at home. It would be a win win for both sides. But thatís just my opinion. I understand a lot of raps fans want him to stay. I get that. I just rather be proactive if we know that he could walk in fee agency. And I have like 0 faith that he would resign here for anything less than 20 mill.

  12. #1017
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    Right but heís turning 35. Surely you understand the concept of window. Lowry no longer fits ours.

    When you say moving fwd are you suggesting keeping him for another year and then revisiting this next season? Because itís an inevitable decision we gotta make. And Iím of the belief that we could still get useful assets to benefit the team.

    I think youíre looking for equal value but that is almost impossible because while he is still playing at a high level the question remains how much longer will he sustain it? 2 years? And what sort of contract are you giving him to stay for those extra two years? Are we ok with Lowry, Siakam, FVV, OG eating all our cap space? Because that would be the situation and we would have no space left to improve the team around that core. We currently hover 500 and desperately need a big which we canít seem to land. So is the plan to remain status quote?

    also I think he would be so happy with a trade to Philly. He would get a chance to compete for a ship and retire at home. It would be a win win for both sides. But thatís just my opinion. I understand a lot of raps fans want him to stay. I get that. I just rather be proactive if we know that he could walk in fee agency. And I have like 0 faith that he would resign here for anything less than 20 mill.
    Even if we only keep Lowry for 1 more year I think there's more value in that than any package trading him could bring. I'm well aware of his age and the window. I'm also aware that he's playing at a ridiculously efficient level right now. One could argue he's even better than last year. I'm confident he could keep this level of play up for another 2 seasons after this one.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  13. #1018
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    I'm with you, man. I've always been a huge Lowry fan and him retiring in Toronto seems fitting, but if you could get some legitimate picks or prospects out of that, you do that in a heartbeat if you're the Raptors. Toronto's heading in the wrong direction, and all keeping Lowry does is keep them in that dreaded 6-8 seed no-man's land spot (at best) that no franchise wants to be in.

    On the bright side, the Raptors are pretty much guaranteed to hit .500 tomorrow night after an easy beatdown of the Rockets.
    Yeah, the way I look at it is if Iím Lowry Iím going to end my career on a contender because I can still play at a high level. The only reason I would stay in Toronto is if they offered me another big contract which no player would turn down at 35. But Toronto has a bunch of money tied up with Siakam, FVV, and OG now. Giving Lowry another big contract would take away our ability to further improve around that core. So if sending Lowry off to a contender like Philly could land us a pick, and prospects like Thybulle & Bradley Iím gonna sign up for that because weíre at a point where we need to retool around the new core we just committed too. And the reality is that Lowry can just leave in about 5 months.

    So if the decision is between a first round pick and prospects vs nothing, I think you gotta go for it. Atleast you know your sending Lowry home to a contender. Itís not like weíre shopping him off to Cleveland (sorry Vee)
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 02-25-2021 at 04:05 PM.

  14. #1019
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    Yeah, the way I look at it is if Iím Lowry Iím going to end my career on a contender because I can still play at a high level. The only reason I would stay in Toronto is if they offered me another big contract which no player would turn down at 35. But Toronto has a bunch of money tied up with Siakam, FVV, and OG now. Giving Lowry another big contract would take away our ability to further improve around that core. So if sending Lowry off to a contender like Philly could land us a pick, and prospects like Thybulle & Bradley Iím gonna sign up for that because weíre at a point where we need to retool around the new core we just committed too.
    You're leaving out a few very important factors. He's been here for almost a decade, it's HIS team, he's won a championship here and the love between him and the city is reciprocal. I have a hard time believing he wants to walk away from the empire that he literally built. The whole culture of the Raptors is literally embodied in Kyle Lowry.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  15. #1020
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    Even if we only keep Lowry for 1 more year I think there's more value in that than any package trading him could bring. I'm well aware of his age and the window. I'm also aware that he's playing at a ridiculously efficient level right now. One could argue he's even better than last year. I'm confident he could keep this level of play up for another 2 seasons after this one.
    He is, but the rest of the team is not. And time is ticking.

    I think after losing Ibaka and to a lesser extent Gasol our playoff hopes got crushed. I donít even want to watch the playoffs this year itís going to be embarrassing as hell. Baynes is gonna get run off the floor and then weíre gonna have to watch Siakam get abused trying to play the 5. Honestly our front court is depleted and we donít have many pieces to address that with out trading core players. Weíre kinda screwed right now man. If we got a good C and we had more of a complete and well balanced team for the post season then yes Iím all the way with you bro. But I have no interest in watching our team get clobbered in the first round. Thatís no fun. every day that passes I have less hope that we will be able to land that impactful 5. Drummond isnít the answer, and I just canít think of many Cs that are available right now.

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