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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Imo, the first one is worth answering. The second isn't.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    I get that.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I agree a perfect God is worth worshipping. But I don't believe a God is perfect if they do things for arbitrary reasons.
    arbitrary to us may not be arbitrary to Him
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    arbitrary to us may not be arbitrary to Him
    True. But I hope he has a really good explanation for why believing in Jesus is necessary to be a good person, because I can’t think of one.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    arbitrary to us may not be arbitrary to Him
    Who can ever know?

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    True. But I hope he has a really good explanation for why believing in Jesus is necessary to be a good person, because I can’t think of one.
    where is it said that one isn't a good person without that? the penitent thief who died next to Jesus on the cross simply said 'remember me when you come into your kingdom' and Jesus said 'today you will be with me in Paradise.' We don't know...a lot of things...we know what we're taught and we know what we believe.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    where is it said that one isn't a good person without that? the penitent thief who died next to Jesus on the cross simply said 'remember me when you come into your kingdom' and Jesus said 'today you will be with me in Paradise.' We don't know...a lot of things...we know what we're taught and we know what we believe.
    Outstanding. If I am reading you correctly, all you’re saying is that all we can know is what we’re taught and what we believe. After that, whatever happens, happens.

    Kinda the same thing with atheists when you get down to it. The only differences of course is what we base our beliefs on and what we’re taught. But after that?

    Yeah.
    Last edited by fanofclendennon; 01-16-2021 at 05:55 PM.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    where is it said that one isn't a good person without that? the penitent thief who died next to Jesus on the cross simply said 'remember me when you come into your kingdom' and Jesus said 'today you will be with me in Paradise.' We don't know...a lot of things...we know what we're taught and we know what we believe.
    Sounds like you’re alluding to the possibility what you’re taught is incorrect.

    As I understand it, you have to believe Jesus is your Lord and Savior in order to go to Heaven according to Christianity.

    This leaves two possibilities, the first is that Christianity believes you must believe that notion in order to be a good person, and the second (and far more disconcerting to me) is that entrance to Heaven isn’t predicated on whether you’re a good person or not. I personally don’t like the idea of a God who bestows paradise on people who are not good while denying it to those who are. But that is just me.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Sounds like you’re alluding to the possibility what you’re taught is incorrect.

    As I understand it, you have to believe Jesus is your Lord and Savior in order to go to Heaven according to Christianity.

    This leaves two possibilities, the first is that Christianity believes you must believe that notion in order to be a good person, and the second (and far more disconcerting to me) is that entrance to Heaven isn’t predicated on whether you’re a good person or not. I personally don’t like the idea of a God who bestows paradise on people who are not good while denying it to those who are. But that is just me.
    There’s a third option.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    There’s a third option.
    To what are you referring?

  10. #85
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    Firstly, all people are sinners and are only saved by God's grace. But you're also assuming that getting into heaven is a black and white thing. True Christians understand there will be a judgement day when they will answer for their sins before God. Again, when and what that is not fully known given it happens after death here. This is where being good doesn't get you in as much as it lessens the discomfort of His judgement. It would be heartless to exclude ppl who were never exposed to Him from eternal life with Him.

    Its not like this directly, of course, but there's an enjoyable old movie called Defending Your Life you may be interested in for a secular angle on this.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    To what are you referring?
    You maybe need both? Belief in Jesus as your Lord and Savior is not sufficient. It must be added to by being judged a good person according the criteria (whatever they are).

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    You maybe need both? Belief in Jesus as your Lord and Savior is not sufficient. It must be added to by being judged a good person according the criteria (whatever they are).
    True, but that means entrance to Heaven is not predicated on solely being a good person, it is predicated on being a good person and believing something which has nothing to do with your goodness.

    Thus, it still runs into the problem of denying people entrance to Heaven if they are good simply because they do not believe that one thing. I’d like to think being a good person should supersede this belief.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    Firstly, all people are sinners and are only saved by God's grace. But you're also assuming that getting into heaven is a black and white thing. True Christians understand there will be a judgement day when they will answer for their sins before God. Again, when and what that is not fully known given it happens after death here. This is where being good doesn't get you in as much as it lessens the discomfort of His judgement. It would be heartless to exclude ppl who were never exposed to Him from eternal life with Him.

    Its not like this directly, of course, but there's an enjoyable old movie called Defending Your Life you may be interested in for a secular angle on this.
    I think it would be equally as heartless to deny heaven to genuinely good people simply because they don’t believe in him.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    True, but that means entrance to Heaven is not predicated on solely being a good person, it is predicated on being a good person and believing something which has nothing to do with your goodness.

    Thus, it still runs into the problem of denying people entrance to Heaven if they are good simply because they do not believe that one thing. I’d like to think being a good person should supersede this belief.
    Agreed.

    Just another — among many — of the holes in the boat.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    Firstly, all people are sinners and are only saved by God's grace. But you're also assuming that getting into heaven is a black and white thing. True Christians understand there will be a judgement day when they will answer for their sins before God. Again, when and what that is not fully known given it happens after death here. This is where being good doesn't get you in as much as it lessens the discomfort of His judgement. It would be heartless to exclude ppl who were never exposed to Him from eternal life with Him.

    Its not like this directly, of course, but there's an enjoyable old movie called Defending Your Life you may be interested in for a secular angle on this.
    “”All people are sinners” only because sin is a God-made concept, a religious-based concept.

    Society makes judgments on what is right or wrong. An arbitrary belief in God, something that cannot be known, decides what is sinful.

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