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  1. #676
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Ill take this ball and run with it.

    Faith can be used for good. It can be used for bad. It can be used to justify a whole host of beliefs. What cant be justified due to faith?

    But is faith in itself a form of repression? If you look at is as the mechanism by which people can control the behavior of others, perhaps youre on to something.

    I know in my Jewish religion, faith is used to convince people to eat a certain way, certain foods are forbidden for reasons only due to their faith. That is repression.

    Then there are religious practices that control sexual behavior, reproductive rights, etc. whats more oppressive than that.

    You may have a point.

    Would the theists agree that faith is a form of repression as opposed to lack of faith?

    Discuss.
    You are looking at the use of faith as an instrument of social manipulation, if you will, and that is no doubt a worthwhile avenue to pursue. I had not even thought of it in those terms, and it is an intriguing angle. Not to mention faith as a way to enforce social stability by offering individual restitution in an afterlife.

    That said, my observation is directed more on the psychological aspect on the part of the individual. As wonderful as life is, it is also mysterious. For many, it can be daunting, perhaps even traumatic, to confront the many unknowns, especially when we consider the ultimate one: death. What awaits us around the corner? Who knows? Is there really anything after death? Is it simply nothingness? Look into the abyss too deeply and one could easily succumb to a kind of fear-induced paralysis. Yet we develop the capacity to press on. We found and continue to find mechanisms to harness even repress the fear. As I see it, faith in a god, particularly a non-corporeal but powerful god who knows us cares about our welfare (and additionally who may offer a promise of further life), could well be one of those mechanisms.

    A poor analogy because it does not involve deference to the supernatural, but Ill offer it anyway. Every time I get in to drive my car, ride my bicycle, fly in a plane, I face potential tragedy. I have to repress those fears in order to press on, and I have to develop the overriding faith that the other guy (potentially hundreds of thousands of them depending on the trip), the pilot, whoever, will do the right thing. Otherwise, Id never leave my house (much less get out of bed).

  2. #677
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    well, if there were ample evidence of His existence, it would no longer require faith to believe in Him, yes?For the sake of discussion, what evidence would it require for you to change your mind?
    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
    Honest question. Do you even know what evidence that you would need as Site and I asked?
    OK. Honest question. Do either of you [even] know what evidence you would need to change your mind?

  3. #678
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    I think it's an unfound fear. So God is not a mechanism, it's an answer to what happens. I would guess many folks have thoughts on those types of fears and dismiss them as quickly as they appeared. There are some (no clue how many) that allow those thoughts to linger longer than they should. And finally there are some that are "controlled" by those fears.
    My Ignore List: bklynny67, nastynice, OhSoSlick, spliff(TONE), zmaster52

  4. #679
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
    So God is not a mechanism, it's an answer to what happens.
    I am not talking about God. I am talking about faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
    I would guess many folks have thoughts on those types of fears and dismiss them as quickly as they appeared. There are some (no clue how many) that allow those thoughts to linger longer than they should. And finally there are some that are "controlled" by those fears.
    Fair enough, though as stated, it adds nothing of value really to the discussion. Now if I put believers in that final category, that would advance things in a substantive way.

    p.s. How about the question in #677 above?

  5. #680
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    OK. Honest question. Do either of you [even] know what evidence you would need to change your mind?
    What changed yours? Born and raised Catholic, right?

    It would have to be something I don't think can happen to change my mind- like verifiable evidence that something significant, like Jesus' death and resurrection, could not have happened.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  6. #681
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    I am not talking about God. I am talking about faith.

    Fair enough, though as stated, it adds nothing of value really to the discussion. Now if I put believers in that final category, that would advance things in a substantive way.

    p.s. How about the question in #677 above?
    Gonna speak for the theists here:

    I don't think there is any amount of evidence that could ever move someone from one's faith or from one's belief in God.

    Another way of saying it is the existence of God can never be disproven due to evidence. Why? Because when something does not exist, it leaves behind no trail of evidence pointing toward its non existence. So people like you and me look for evidence before we choose to believe. But the believers, well, that's another story....
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears but they seem kinda sensible...."

  7. #682
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Gonna speak for the theists here:

    I don't think there is any amount of evidence that could ever move someone from one's faith or from one's belief in God.

    Another way of saying it is the existence of God can never be disproven due to evidence. Why? Because when something does not exist, it leaves behind no trail of evidence pointing toward its non existence. So people like you and me look for evidence before we choose to believe. But the believers, well, that's another story....
    You may have started out speaking for the theists here, but no theist would view your last paragraph as correct.

    A believer sees evidence of God literally EVERYwhere. A non-believer expects that evidence to smack them in the head, with footnotes.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  8. #683
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    What changed yours? Born and raised Catholic, right?
    Not at all. First, my father was an atheist, but my mother got me baptised in the Episcopal Church. I attended church with her sporadically until the age of ten. That was it. Basically, I went through the kind of motions that kids do, but I never possessed faith to begin with, so I guess I never lost faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    It would have to be something I don't think can happen to change my mind- like verifiable evidence that something significant, like Jesus' death and resurrection, could not have happened.
    I can help you out there.
    Last edited by Crovash; 06-14-2021 at 11:46 AM.

  9. #684
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    Not at all. First, my father was an atheist, but my mother got me baptised in the Episcopal Church. I attended church with her sporadically until the age of ten. That was it. Basically, I went through the kind of motions that kids do, but I never possessed faith to begin with, so I guess I never lost faith.

    I can help you out there.
    Misremembered about your early days, my bad

    No, I'm basically positive you can't help me out there.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  10. #685
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    OK. Honest question. Do either of you [even] know what evidence you would need to change your mind?
    That's akin to asking what would it take for 2+2=/=4 in a math problem. And for what it's worth, the certainty of God is greater than 2+2=4 for me.
    My Ignore List: bklynny67, nastynice, OhSoSlick, spliff(TONE), zmaster52

  11. #686
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    You may have started out speaking for the theists here, but no theist would view your last paragraph as correct.

    A believer sees evidence of God literally EVERYwhere. A non-believer expects that evidence to smack them in the head, with footnotes.
    Well, if I look absolutely everywhere, Id have to observe that some of that evidence is (trying to find the right word here) mystifying? It seems to me that squaring that evidence with a benevolent and omnipotent god requires some serious spiritual gymnastics.

  12. #687
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    Well, if I look absolutely everywhere, Id have to observe that some of that evidence is (trying to find the right word here) mystifying? It seems to me that squaring that evidence with a benevolent and omnipotent god requires some serious spiritual gymnastics.
    Takes no gymnastics whatsoever for someone to believe the beauty of this universe was orchestrated by an all-powerful God. You can go on thinking there's a lot of random choice or that evolution didn't involve a creator, doesn't work for me.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  13. #688
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    Takes no gymnastics whatsoever for someone to believe the beauty of this universe was orchestrated by an all-powerful God. You can go on thinking there's a lot of random choice or that evolution didn't involve a creator, doesn't work for me.
    No doubt the universe is a magnificent thing.

    And as far as I am concerned, human beings are like mosquitoes, rocks, and trees a miniscule and ultimately insignificant part of it. Soon enough we and all of our silly egotism will fade into oblivion, and the universe wont care one bit.

  14. #689
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
    That's akin to asking what would it take for 2+2=/=4 in a math problem. And for what it's worth, the certainty of God is greater than 2+2=4 for me.
    The comparison does not work for me. Addition is a rational exercise that can be demonstrated over and over at any time, anywhere. The other exercising faith in a god is irrational (which, by the way, is not a condemnation) and cannot transmitted with any consistency.
    Last edited by Crovash; 06-15-2021 at 08:27 AM.

  15. #690
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    The comparison does not work for me. Addition is a rational exercise that can be demonstrated over and over at any time, anywhere. The other exercising faith in a god is irrational (which, by the way, is not a condemnation) and cannot transmitted with any consistency.
    When we were two years old, we had no ability to comprehend the problem 2+2=4. sometime between three and five years of age we had no issues with it. It's the same with God. For a small period of time we have no way to understand God. Then at some point we do. It's accepted, rejected, but all will know someday. The period where we did not will be insignificant time wise.
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