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  1. #691
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
    When we were two years old, we had no ability to comprehend the problem 2+2=4. sometime between three and five years of age we had no issues with it. It's the same with God. For a small period of time we have no way to understand God. Then at some point we do. It's accepted, rejected, but all will know someday. The period where we did not will be insignificant time wise.
    Interesting theory, though I’d argue the opposite process is more accurate.

  2. #692
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    Interesting theory, though I’d argue the opposite process is more accurate.
    could you expand that? 'Cause I am seeing opposite as up til we are two we understand math and then afterwards we are clueless.
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  3. #693
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    wait, you mean we accept god until later we don't as it's incorrect.

    I don't think anyone has ever presented anything to disprove His Word
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  4. #694
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    It goes without saying that it is difficult to know what are the processes that infants and young children use to comprehend existence and interact with their environment.

    Suffice it to say, that at some point — impossible to put an exact age on it — most of them are capable of engaging the world (including the world of maths) rationally. This rational development often coincides with their loss of belief in the various imaginary beings offered up in their particular culture.

    Interestingly, as I now theorize, this is also the time period when they are probably at their ripest for religious indoctrination. The rational apprehension of the harsh realities of life (disease, rejection, death) is disturbing enough, and they seek to repress those harsh realities, leaving them ripe for the picking.

  5. #695
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    It goes without saying that it is difficult to know what are the processes that infants and young children use to comprehend existence and interact with their environment.

    Suffice it to say, that at some point — impossible to put an exact age on it — most of them are capable of engaging the world (including the world of maths) rationally. This rational development often coincides with their loss of belief in the various imaginary beings offered up in their particular culture.

    Interestingly, as I now theorize, this is also the time period when they are probably at their ripest for religious indoctrination. The rational apprehension of the harsh realities of life (disease, rejection, death) is disturbing enough, and they seek to repress those harsh realities, leaving them ripe for the picking.
    I get what you are saying and I would agree with you, a child is most impressive than at any other age the person may become (Not sure how I phrased that but I think you get the picture). However, I'd disagree that a child understands disease and death to any reasonable degree. That comes much much later for most.

    EDIT: impressionable is the word, not impressive...LOL
    Last edited by brett05; 06-15-2021 at 03:06 PM.
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  6. #696
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    It goes without saying that it is difficult to know what are the processes that infants and young children use to comprehend existence and interact with their environment.

    Suffice it to say, that at some point — impossible to put an exact age on it — most of them are capable of engaging the world (including the world of maths) rationally. This rational development often coincides with their loss of belief in the various imaginary beings offered up in their particular culture.

    Interestingly, as I now theorize, this is also the time period when they are probably at their ripest for religious indoctrination. The rational apprehension of the harsh realities of life (disease, rejection, death) is disturbing enough, and they seek to repress those harsh realities, leaving them ripe for the picking.
    You say that like it's a brainwashing. From your side, you may believe that to be true.
    Guess what? Those of us who believe could view the opposite to be true as well.

    Yes, the young brain is a sponge. It's the best time for a child to learn languages, absorb a lot of knowledge. But there are many many people who are religious now who either weren't as children or fell away as young adults, too.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  7. #697
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
    I get what you are saying and I would agree with you, a child is most impressive than at any other age the person may become (Not sure how I phrased that but I think you get the picture). However, I'd disagree that a child understands disease and death to any reasonable degree. That comes much much later for most.
    Yeah. I phrased it wrong. I think ripe and indoctrination were not the right words — they conjure up a negative tone. Rather, I should say that I believe that the child is at this time most fully open to the promises of religious teachings. It is a welcome comfort. A salve, if you will.

    How much of this is conscious or unconscious, I can’t speculate. And the question of the actual age is variable. The one thing I can say, is that I first fully understood and internalized the reality of death at age 6 years and 1 month (and I remember the moment as if it was yesterday — it was in 1958!).
    Last edited by Crovash; 06-15-2021 at 02:09 PM.

  8. #698
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    Yeah. I phrased it wrong. I think ripe and indoctrination were not the right words — they conjure up a negative tone. Rather, I should say that I believe that the child is at this time most fully open to the promises of religious teachings. It is a welcome comfort. A salve, if you will.

    How much of this is conscious or unconscious, I can’t speculate. And the question of the actual age is variable. The one thing I can say, is that I first fully understood and internalized the reality of death at age 6 years and 1 month (and I remember the moment as if it was yesterday — it was in 1958!).
    May I ask who you lost?
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  9. #699
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    You may have started out speaking for the theists here, but no theist would view your last paragraph as correct.

    A believer sees evidence of God literally EVERYwhere. A non-believer expects that evidence to smack them in the head, with footnotes.
    Yes. Note how I said God can never be “disproven.” Not that he can’t be proven but that he can never be “disproven.”

    I would expect you and I to argue though end times (my little joke) about what constitutes proof of God. But I guarantee we will never argue over what proof there is to show he does not exist. Why? There is none. There never will be any!

    With regards to the part about requiring evidence that snacks us in the head with footnotes, you’re spot on with that one. We’re talking about God here, the alleged invisible Man who created the world. You want me to believe that you’re damned right your evidence had damned well better be something extra special. Not: See that tree? God did it!” Or “Ever look in the eyes of a smiling baby? That’s God’s work right there!”

    That don’t work for atheists.
    Last edited by fanofclendennon; 06-16-2021 at 06:46 AM.

  10. #700
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
    May I ask who you lost?
    You may. No one.

    I just saw a picture that my mother was looking at in Life Magazine (some irony there, eh?) of Pope Pius XII lying in state in the Vatican, and I asked my mother about the picture. When she finished explaining as best she could about his death, I asked if she was going to die and if I too was going to die. She said yes, and it proceeded from there (I’ll spare the further details — they are inconsequential).

    Inside this issue (gotta love ebay)



    Sadly, my mother died of cancer less than 5 years later, at the age of 37.

  11. #701
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    My first, I cannot date, though I know how old I was and where I was as I have a picture from that incident. I was at a local place here in the Chicago suburbs called The Little Red School House. It's a nature preserve. I had found a brown and orange extra fuzzy caterpillar. I was all of three or four years old. I picked it up and was careful with it making sure not to crush it. I held in cupped on my hand for maybe 15 minutes. I think the human contact and perhaps sweat combined with even more heat in such a tiny area killed it. I had opened my hand to find it dead. I cried for two reasons, one it was my pet that I cherished and two I was the cause. Mom did her best to comfort me.

    I lost my mom to cancer as well at the age of 60. Most likely self caused (2.5 packs a day smoker)
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  12. #702
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
    My first, I cannot date, though I know how old I was and where I was as I have a picture from that incident. I was at a local place here in the Chicago suburbs called The Little Red School House. It's a nature preserve. I had found a brown and orange extra fuzzy caterpillar. I was all of three or four years old. I picked it up and was careful with it making sure not to crush it. I held in cupped on my hand for maybe 15 minutes. I think the human contact and perhaps sweat combined with even more heat in such a tiny area killed it. I had opened my hand to find it dead. I cried for two reasons, one it was my pet that I cherished and two I was the cause. Mom did her best to comfort me.

    I lost my mom to cancer as well at the age of 60. Most likely self caused (2.5 packs a day smoker)
    Sorry to hear about your mom. Cancer is a brutal disease.

  13. #703
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    Sorry to hear about your mom. Cancer is a brutal disease.
    I feel for you too. We all lose our parents. But I wish it wasn't happening for anyone before all kids are at least 18
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  14. #704
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    I feel for my youngest brother. Youngest of 7 kids. Not so much from the age part, though he was only 25 when dad died, 43 when mom died. But he's noticeably younger than most of his siblings. He stands a good chance of watching as one by one his siblings die before him. One sister is already gone, the other will be any day now. The 5 brothers aren't necessarily close, but are 60-73 yrs old while he's only 53.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  15. #705
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    In a book on the 18th-century philosopher, Frederich Nietzsche, I came across the following observation:

    “Nietzsche, echoing Schopenhauer, believed that the ways in which most individuals sought to alleviate agony only deepened it in the end. Typical escapes — food, money, power, sex — are painfully transitory. Life goes only one way, into ever steeper decline. This is true for all living beings, but humans have the unique powers of recollection and foresight, so they, unlike mere beasts, can relive the horrors of life and clearly envision their untimely demise. Of course, one can find distractions — politics, education, religion, family life — but these do little to mitigate the painful effects of being human. These relationships and institutions are as fragile and unreliable as the lives that support them.” (John Kaag; Hiking with Nietzsche)

    This pessimism (realism?) cuts awfully deep, doesn’t it?

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