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  1. #871
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    ok fine, maybe I don't rest my case on your comment....but when you say 'maybe God is dead' in a discussion about His existence yes, it strikes me as negative

    You know of the concept of free will, right?
    This whole thing called life isn't completely scripted, Hitler and all his actions weren't part of God's directive. Yes, I see evidence of His presence all around me- in the world He created, in the way it's constucted, in the amazing way the human body is constructed and heals itself, and on and on with what MY view is of evidence.

    None of us understand all the ways of God. I mean there's people that say 'if God exists, how does He let a child die' etc. Even the most religious doesn't always understand things like that. We can speculate that some are teaching moments, most are the result of Him allowing His creations to exercise free will...all of which are imperfect, all of which are sinners.
    We turn our back on God and then ask why our lives are so bad. That's not God, that's squarely on us.
    My Ignore List: bklynny67, nastynice, OhSoSlick, spliff(TONE), zmaster52

  2. #872
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    Again, pointless

    base my beliefs on my beliefs? that's not even a viable statement

    Ask me to do whatever you want, I really don't care

    I've done my best to answer questions here yet those answers are so often met with 'oh, ok...you're wrong'...yet I've never done the same to you. That's not a discussion, that's just you guys attempting to set me up to look more ignorant than you........and I guarantee you that is not the case.
    It’s exactly what you’re doing — basing your beliefs on your beliefs— when you’re saying you base your evidence on your beliefs.

    Evidence is demonstrable. Beliefs, not necessarily.

    I believe my car can go from 0 to 200 in 5 seconds if the conditions are just right because I’ve seen it happen with my own eyes. Am I basing this statement on evidence or beliefs?

    Remember, I didn’t tell you your belief that God is all around you was wrong. But it fails to meet the criteria of evidence because you cannot demonstrate it.

    But I suppose you’ll either never concede or admit this point. Sigh.

  3. #873
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    dude, please look up the definition of evidence

    "the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid."

    We're arguing semantics here...with no productive end. Why would I concede a point that's verified by the acceptable definition of a word?

    'Believe' what you want...I guarantee your g/f is more on my side on this than yours and I'm not here to argue semantics or be made to feel I should be on the defensive when I have yet to put YOU on the defensive. See the difference there? Sigh.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  4. #874
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    ok fine, maybe I don't rest my case on your comment....but when you say 'maybe God is dead' in a discussion about His existence yes, it strikes me as negative.
    Well, yeah, it’s negative in the sense that it asserts non-existence, but since any comprehensive discussion of God’s existence has to include the possibility that God does not exist (i.e. God is dead), I am not presenting it just to rain on everyone’s parade. And I am by no means bringing up anything new.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    You know of the concept of free will, right? This whole thing called life isn't completely scripted, Hitler and all his actions weren't part of God's directive… We can speculate that some are teaching moments, most are the result of Him allowing His creations to exercise free will...all of which are imperfect, all of which are sinners.
    The free will argument is interesting, though I have never understood what the point of it ever was. Why did God gove humans free will in the first place? To test whether we would choose to submit? At the risk of sounding too negative, if it is true (that God gave us free will) then it always seemed to me like a form of entrapment (as articulated figuratively in the Garden of Eden myth).

  5. #875
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    Well, yeah, it’s negative in the sense that it asserts non-existence, but since any comprehensive discussion of God’s existence has to include the possibility that God does not exist (i.e. God is dead), I am not presenting it just to rain on everyone’s parade. And I am by no means bringing up anything new.

    The free will argument is interesting, though I have never understood what the point of it ever was. Why did God gove humans free will in the first place? To test whether we would choose to submit? At the risk of sounding too negative, if it is true (that God gave us free will) then it always seemed to me like a form of entrapment (as articulated figuratively in the Garden of Eden myth).
    the Adam and Eve story....he told them not to eat of the forbidden fruit, they did anyway
    there again, you call it entrapment and that the whole thing was myth...if you believe that, then why concern yourself with the concept of free will?

    Why would He do it? Well, given I'm not Him nor privy to His plan, I can't fully answer that...

    God is dead is different from God doesn't exist....you can't die if you didn't first live...so saying He is dead also admits He once existed.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  6. #876
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    the Adam and Eve story....he told them not to eat of the forbidden fruit, they did…Why would He do it? Well, given I'm not Him nor privy to His plan, I can't fully answer that...
    I know you can’t, but don’t take it the wrong way when I say that this does strike me as the convenient default response (the ways of God defy human comprehension) when Christians are faced with something that doesn’t quite make sense. It’s the same problem I have with faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    God is dead is different from God doesn't exist....you can't die if you didn't first live...so saying He is dead also admits He once existed.
    First off, I must repeat what I have said before in these religion threads: I have never declared that there is no supreme deity; I have only maintained that the god of the Jewish/Christian/Muslim tradition (the capital G god) does not exist — which to me in other words means dead (FYI I believe I was dead — non existant — before I was alive and I will be dead — non existant — again). Call it what you will. Semanitcs changes nothing.

  7. #877
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    dude, please look up the definition of evidence

    "the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid."

    We're arguing semantics here...with no productive end. Why would I concede a point that's verified by the acceptable definition of a word?

    'Believe' what you want...I guarantee your g/f is more on my side on this than yours and I'm not here to argue semantics or be made to feel I should be on the defensive when I have yet to put YOU on the defensive. See the difference there? Sigh.
    Lol, yes. Please read what you wrote.

    “The available body of facts or information….”

    That’s what we’re talking about. What is your “available body of facts and information” to support your belief that God is all around you?

    Answer: It’s what you believe. See the problem now? Do you understand now when I say you are basing your beliefs on your beliefs?

    FYI: I never discuss this with my GF. It’s one reason why she’s still my GF.
    Last edited by fanofclendennon; 07-23-2021 at 09:31 PM.

  8. #878
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    pointless circles, I'm done here
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  9. #879
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    I don’t buy the analogy that rests on subjective interpretations of someone’s actions (rude vs. kind). We are talking about ontology, specifically regarding the essence of God in light of his relationship to Jesus. If Jesus is God, then there’s a problem. If Jesus is both human and God, then there’s a problem. And if Jesus just a human, then once again there’s a problem.
    We can shift the analogy to be more comparable then. If I believe you’re someone’s father and another person doesn’t, we are still both talking about you regardless of whether you are or are not the father of that kid.

    And yes there’s a problem, you’re saying two groups’ unverifiable beliefs on a creatures nature are not consistent. That is a problem, but it being a problem doesn’t automatically mean they must be discussing two different Gods, it means they have a different belief about the nature and powers of the same God.

    It seems natural to me that this could happen given that no one with the beliefs can verify the truth of them.

  10. #880
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
    I believe I stated this earlier. At what point does it become a different God?
    That’s a good question. I’d say when those who believe state they are talking about a different God, or that there is no connection in either their scriptures or doctrine connecting the two. The Quran clearly mentions Psalms and the Gospel.

    In fact, religious scholars refer to these as the Abrahamic religions precisely because they all purport to believe in the same God from the Old Testament.

  11. #881
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    pointless circles, I'm done here
    No problem. I made my point.

  12. #882
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    No problem. I made my point.
    actually, you didn't...that's why it's pointless, because you think you did
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  13. #883
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    actually, you didn't...that's why it's pointless, because you think you did
    I couldn’t have made it any clearer. I even used the definition of evidence you provided me. Can you tell me what the body of information and facts you’re using to base your belief that “God is all around you?”

    That was the definition you offered, remember?
    Last edited by fanofclendennon; 07-24-2021 at 09:13 AM.

  14. #884
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    To be fair, SiteWolf, I’m playing with a stacked deck and you know it. If there was sufficient evidence to base your belief, we wouldn’t be having this discussion and no one would be talking about a belief in God in terms of “faith.”

    Yet you insist on wanting to cross that line by stubbornly refusing to admit it’s not evidential, it’s faith.

    You’re a man of faith. I am not. Why can’t we call that our common ground?
    Last edited by fanofclendennon; 07-24-2021 at 10:12 AM.

  15. #885
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    To be fair, SiteWolf, I’m playing with a stacked deck and you know it. If there was sufficient evidence to base your belief, we wouldn’t be having this discussion and no one would be talking about a belief in God in terms of “faith.”

    Yet you insist on wanting to cross that line by stubbornly refusing to admit it’s not evidential, it’s faith.

    You’re a man of faith. I am not. Why can’t we call that our common ground?
    that's just it....we KNOW it's our common ground, yet you're insisting on arguing semantics and being 'right' about your view of those semantics........call it what you want, but please stop pounding for ME to call it what you want...it's still semantics because you expect that evidence to be hard facts and info while that's not my perception of evidence

    I don't come here to argue semantics, yet suddenly that's basically what I'm doing in like 3 threads here, and I just have no interest. In those threads I've been called wrong and hypocritical just because posters are either misinterpreting what I said or reading between lines that I mean something other than what I've said. When it's no longer entertaining to have discussions here, why continue?
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

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