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  1. #1
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    Religion without God...

    ...is politics.

    To some degree I am being flippant but political entities do appear to be the result when the sorts of ties that bind a group together in traditional religious (i.e. god-fearing) practice are applied practically in a non-religious setting.

    That is to say, secular communities which cohere by virtue of commonly accepted doctrines, morals, and teachings; a shared history; and a loyalty and commitment to the welfare of the community itself as well as to the other members of the community ó but at the same time functions without reliance on the supernatural as the essential foundation.

    Nationalism (itself a political entity) comes to mind as the principal manifestation of this, but there are other forms as well, most much smaller in size and scope: organized political parties, gangs, fraternities and sororities, cults, even I suppose some clubs.

    They have their rituals, their argot, their hierarchies, their allies and their enemies.

    Hereís my real question with respect to all this: can one truly commit simultaneously to both a religious entity (say Christianity) and a secular entity (say America)?

  2. #2
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    Why not? Isnít that what Separation of Church and State is all about? While itís true many choose not to, thereís no reason they canít. Many insist that America is a Christian nation when in fact it is not.

    Point is it CAN be done. Most just donít try hard enough.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Why not? Isnít that what Separation of Church and State is all about? While itís true many choose not to, thereís no reason they canít. Many insist that America is a Christian nation when in fact it is not.

    Point is it CAN be done. Most just donít try hard enough.
    Careful, the non-religious insist both ways, depending on the situation.
    They seem to think everyone should stand true to their beliefs....while at the same time telling Christians to keep religion out of government....apparently not understanding that a Christian cannot do both simultaneously. However, they seem to think it blasphemous if anyone question a Muslim standing true to their beliefs the same way.

    People can't change who they are. A Christian has their beliefs, a non-religious person has theirs. Who ARE you if you don't stand up for what you believe in?
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    Careful, the non-religious insist both ways, depending on the situation.
    I am pretty sure this cuts both ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    They seem to think everyone should stand true to their beliefs....while at the same time telling Christians to keep religion out of government....apparently not understanding that a Christian cannot do both simultaneously. However, they seem to think it blasphemous if anyone question a Muslim standing true to their beliefs the same way.

    People can't change who they are.
    I definitely disagree with this statement.

    If you mean, however, that once a person has decided who they are going to be, I agree that they should live up to their beliefs ó as long as they are willing to accept the consequences when those beliefs conflict with secular law (this is precisely why I asked in the other thread whether one can be truly Christian and truly American, a question to which I received no response ó I guess because most people here think I am just trolling).

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    Careful, the non-religious insist both ways, depending on the situation.
    They seem to think everyone should stand true to their beliefs....while at the same time telling Christians to keep religion out of government....apparently not understanding that a Christian cannot do both simultaneously. However, they seem to think it blasphemous if anyone question a Muslim standing true to their beliefs the same way.

    People can't change who they are. A Christian has their beliefs, a non-religious person has theirs. Who ARE you if you don't stand up for what you believe in?
    I donít mind you standing up for what you believe in. But there is a line to be drawn when it comes to religious belief and government. See, when you make your religious belief part of OUR government, you force me to believe as you do.

    How is that fair? More importantly, how is that even right? No one is saying you canít believe as you wish. Just keep it out of government.

    Make sense?
    Last edited by fanofclendennon; 06-05-2021 at 06:47 PM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    I donít mind you standing up for what you believe in. But there is a line to be drawn when it comes to religious belief and government. See, when you make your religious belief part of OUR government, you force me to believe as you do.

    How is that fair? More importantly, how is that even right? No one is saying you canít believe as you wish. Just keep it out of government.

    Make sense?
    I'm not forcing anyone to believe in what I believe. However, if you think that true, would you not be forcing me to believe as you believe if you make YOUR non-religious belief part of our government? Prayer in schools- I'm not forcing your kids to pray, but you're forcing mine NOT to, yes? If I'm a religious person, I likely have certain views on certain subjects. Yet expressing those views is, to some, 'forcing my religion on you', yet the reverse is not true if you 'force' your opposing view on me. How is THAT fair? If a Christian has a largely anti-abortion view, that's inserting religion into government. Yet religion doesn't come up otherwise.

    So, that 'fine line' you speak of can be a somewhat hypocritical one.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    I'm not forcing anyone to believe in what I believe. However, if you think that true, would you not be forcing me to believe as you believe if you make YOUR non-religious belief part of our government? Prayer in schools- I'm not forcing your kids to pray, but you're forcing mine NOT to, yes? If I'm a religious person, I likely have certain views on certain subjects. Yet expressing those views is, to some, 'forcing my religion on you', yet the reverse is not true if you 'force' your opposing view on me. How is THAT fair? If a Christian has a largely anti-abortion view, that's inserting religion into government. Yet religion doesn't come up otherwise.

    So, that 'fine line' you speak of can be a somewhat hypocritical one.
    No one is telling your kids they canít pray in school. No one can stop them. They will always have that freedom. Itís been said that as long as there are tests there will always be prayer in school.

    But you canít have teachers or administrators or officials etc leading students in prayer. It's one thing for students to pray of their own volition. It's quite another for schools to sanction prayer. That's what violates the First Amendment and that's what cannot happen. Schools can play no role in prayer. That's not what they're there for and that's not their function. What students choose to do on their own time while they are in school is their own business.

    Based on what I just told you, how were your rights violated?

    Letís say Iím NOT a Christian woman and I choose to have an abortion. How does this violate YOUR rights?
    Last edited by fanofclendennon; 06-06-2021 at 11:55 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    No one is telling your kids they canít pray in school. No one can stop them. They will always have that freedom. Itís been said that as long as there are tests there will always be prayer in school.

    But you canít have teachers or administrators or officials etc leading students in prayer. It's one thing for students to pray of their own volition. It's quite another for schools to sanction prayer. That's what violates the First Amendment and that's what cannot happen. Schools can play no role in prayer. That's not what they're there for and that's not their function. What students choose to do on their own time while they are in school is their own business.

    Based on what I just told you, how were your rights violated?

    Letís say Iím NOT a Christian woman and I choose to have an abortion. How does this violate YOUR rights?
    It's been years now, but my niece was once sent home from school because she kept praying even after they told her not to. She was doing so silently, disrupting nothing, always still properly paying attention in class. Yet that same school later set aside both a time and a place for Muslim students.

    I never said a thing about making prayer a group thing, a public thing, or anything other than allowing a child to pray on their own.

    I also didn't FORCE a view on abortion by expressing my own opinion. I have the right to an opinion, correct? But in today's world, expressing a conservative opinion is often viewed as 'un PC' while the same is not true when expressing others.

    There's a huge difference between telling someone they can't DO something or have to DO something and telling them their OPINION (belief) is unacceptable.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    It's been years now, but my niece was once sent home from school because she kept praying even after they told her not to. She was doing so silently, disrupting nothing, always still properly paying attention in class. Yet that same school later set aside both a time and a place for Muslim students.

    I never said a thing about making prayer a group thing, a public thing, or anything other than allowing a child to pray on their own.

    I also didn't FORCE a view on abortion by expressing my own opinion. I have the right to an opinion, correct? But in today's world, expressing a conservative opinion is often viewed as 'un PC' while the same is not true when expressing others.

    There's a huge difference between telling someone they can't DO something or have to DO something and telling them their OPINION (belief) is unacceptable.
    Without knowing all the details and strictly going by your side of the story, I'd say your niece's school got it wrong, 100 percent. Wondering, though, if she was praying silently, how'd anyone know whether she was praying or whether she was merely trying to memorize the nine times table?

    There is nothing in the United States Constitution that forbids students from praying to themselves in school. Indeed, Freedom of Religion is guaranteed in the First Amendment. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." The ACLU would have been right behind you on this one.

    My guess is there might have been other issues involved but going strictly on what you just told me, your niece's first amendment rights were very much violated.

    School prayer is very much misunderstood. It only becomes a problem when it is sanctioned officially by the school. Students are allowed to pray on their own. That's never been the issue. Bad school officials? That's another story.

    As for abortion, you're entitled to your opinions but so are others. And with all types of speech, there are often consequences. Freedom of Speech doeosn't mean freedom from consequences.

    If someone doesn't like what you said, that's between you and him/her.
    Last edited by fanofclendennon; 06-07-2021 at 10:05 AM.
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears Ė but they seem kinda sensible...."

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Without knowing all the details and strictly going by your side of the story, I'd say your niece's school got it wrong, 100 percent. Wondering, though, if she was praying silently, how'd anyone know whether she was praying or whether she was merely trying to memorize the nine times table?

    There is nothing in the United States Constitution that forbids students from praying to themselves in school. Indeed, Freedom of Religion is guaranteed in the First Amendment. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." The ACLU would have been right behind you on this one.

    My guess is there might have been other issues involved but going strictly on what you just told me, your niece's first amendment rights were very much violated.

    School prayer is very much misunderstood. It only becomes a problem when it is sanctioned officially by the school. Students are allowed to pray on their own. That's never been the issue. Bad school officials? That's another story.

    As for abortion, you're entitled to your opinions but so are others. And with all types of speech, there are often consequences. Freedom of Speech doeosn't mean freedom from consequences.

    If someone doesn't like what you said, that's between you and him/her.
    A child is often taught to fold their hands while praying. That was their 'visual cue' to what she was doing, along with her freely admitting she was praying when asked. So yes, they most definitely got it wrong....and that much more so given the same school allowed Muslim kids their own private space and excuse from portions of class time specifically to pray.

    But that's what I'm talking about...that's just one example of the hypocrisy Christians deal with on a daily basis from people who feel THEIR freedom is being violated by simply witnessing a Christian expressing theirs.

    re abortion- my point being, if I express an anti-abortion view I am FAR more likely to be chastised by a pro-choice advocate than a pro-choice advocate is to be chastised by someone with an anti-abortion view....FAR more

    for the record, like much of my politics, my views on abortion are not as far right as you might think by my Christian beliefs
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    A child is often taught to fold their hands while praying. That was their 'visual cue' to what she was doing, along with her freely admitting she was praying when asked. So yes, they most definitely got it wrong....and that much more so given the same school allowed Muslim kids their own private space and excuse from portions of class time specifically to pray.

    But that's what I'm talking about...that's just one example of the hypocrisy Christians deal with on a daily basis from people who feel THEIR freedom is being violated by simply witnessing a Christian expressing theirs.

    re abortion- my point being, if I express an anti-abortion view I am FAR more likely to be chastised by a pro-choice advocate than a pro-choice advocate is to be chastised by someone with an anti-abortion view....FAR more

    for the record, like much of my politics, my views on abortion are not as far right as you might think by my Christian beliefs
    I can't speak for who will or won't chastise you. That's a matter of individuality and the company you keep. Also, many times, the folks who run schools get it wrong. And your perception of where the hypocrisy lies is colored by which side you're on. That's just human nature.
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears Ė but they seem kinda sensible...."

  12. #12
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    Isn't this just tribalism? It happens with political parties, with game consoles, with sports teams, with diets and car brands and smartphone brands. We're hardwired to do it, because we can't stop ourselves from it, no matter how stupid the thing may be.

    I don't see anything stopping religious people from taking part in that form of tribalism, too. Christians support sports teams and have iPhones and buy PlayStations the same as everyone else.


    "`Can you explain this gap in your resume?`

    `Well, the vaccinated hosts on the news channel I like convinced me to resign to protest my work's vaccine mandate and take a few years off to help extend the pandemicĒ" - @LOLGOP

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    Careful, the non-religious insist both ways, depending on the situation.
    They seem to think everyone should stand true to their beliefs....while at the same time telling Christians to keep religion out of government....apparently not understanding that a Christian cannot do both simultaneously. However, they seem to think it blasphemous if anyone question a Muslim standing true to their beliefs the same way.

    People can't change who they are. A Christian has their beliefs, a non-religious person has theirs. Who ARE you if you don't stand up for what you believe in?
    This is just a bunch of strawmen stacked on top of each other.

    I'm not forcing anyone to believe in what I believe. However, if you think that true, would you not be forcing me to believe as you believe if you make YOUR non-religious belief part of our government?
    No. Not having a religious aspect to something is inclusive of everyone, whether religious or not. Having something be explicitly religious excludes both the non-religious and those of other religions. It's a simple difference between inclusive and exclusive. There is no good argument for a government that is meant to represent everyone to favor a religion that everyone does not adhere to.

    Prayer in schools- I'm not forcing your kids to pray, but you're forcing mine NOT to, yes?
    Again, no. Children can and do pray in schools all the time, as is their right. There's even a special day created to promote it.

    School kids praying and teacher-led prayer are not the same thing, despite how you're trying to conflate them here.

    If I'm a religious person, I likely have certain views on certain subjects. Yet expressing those views is, to some, 'forcing my religion on you', yet the reverse is not true if you 'force' your opposing view on me. How is THAT fair? If a Christian has a largely anti-abortion view, that's inserting religion into government. Yet religion doesn't come up otherwise.
    You literally picked the worst possible example here. Giving other people the choice to have an abortion forces nothing on you. Abortions happened today, in places all over the country, and you were wholly unaware of each individual one. Sure, you knew that general abortions were happening, but at no point could you accurately say "Mary McUterus just had an abortion." Nothing was forced upon you; a separate person made a choice for themself that did not involve you in the slightest.

    What you want, on the other hand, is to tell a pregnant person that they can't make that choice because your religion says it's wrong. Who cares? That's your religion (ignoring, of course, that there is nowhere in the Bible that declares abortion is forbidden), not theirs. Why should what religion you follow have any effect on their autonomy? Again, there is no good argument for this.

    It's been years now, but my niece was once sent home from school because she kept praying even after they told her not to. She was doing so silently, disrupting nothing, always still properly paying attention in class. Yet that same school later set aside both a time and a place for Muslim students
    What anyone is supposed to do with this anecdote is a mystery to me. In order to even begin to address it, we have to first assume that you have all the relevant facts, and that you have accurately relayed them; I see no reason to assume either. It is effectively a hypothetical, and a rather convenient one at that.

    I never said a thing about making prayer a group thing, a public thing, or anything other than allowing a child to pray on their own.
    As pointed out above, that's already a thing. It was a thing when I was in high school, far too long ago. It continues to be a thing today. You are requesting something you already have. Something that is even, but the way, defended by the ACLU:

    "The ACLU works to protect public school studentsí religious freedom by curbing the practice of school-sponsored prayer and proselytizing while simultaneously ensuring that students may freely express and exercise their faith."

    I also didn't FORCE a view on abortion by expressing my own opinion. I have the right to an opinion, correct? But in today's world, expressing a conservative opinion is often viewed as 'un PC' while the same is not true when expressing others.
    You're perfectly free to tell someone abortion is wrong all you want. You're not perfectly free to prevent them from having one because your religion says it is bad. Simple.

    re abortion- my point being, if I express an anti-abortion view I am FAR more likely to be chastised by a pro-choice advocate than a pro-choice advocate is to be chastised by someone with an anti-abortion view....FAR more
    So it's "free speech for me but not for thee"? Learning what the intolerance paradox is may help you here. Either way, if you want to be free to express your opinion, then it is only reasonable that others are free to tell you that opinion is wrong. I'm not sure what's complicated about that.


    "`Can you explain this gap in your resume?`

    `Well, the vaccinated hosts on the news channel I like convinced me to resign to protest my work's vaccine mandate and take a few years off to help extend the pandemicĒ" - @LOLGOP

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by natepro View Post
    This is just a bunch of strawmen stacked on top of each other.



    No. Not having a religious aspect to something is inclusive of everyone, whether religious or not. Having something be explicitly religious excludes both the non-religious and those of other religions. It's a simple difference between inclusive and exclusive. There is no good argument for a government that is meant to represent everyone to favor a religion that everyone does not adhere to.



    Again, no. Children can and do pray in schools all the time, as is their right. There's even a special day created to promote it.

    School kids praying and teacher-led prayer are not the same thing, despite how you're trying to conflate them here.



    You literally picked the worst possible example here. Giving other people the choice to have an abortion forces nothing on you. Abortions happened today, in places all over the country, and you were wholly unaware of each individual one. Sure, you knew that general abortions were happening, but at no point could you accurately say "Mary McUterus just had an abortion." Nothing was forced upon you; a separate person made a choice for themself that did not involve you in the slightest.

    What you want, on the other hand, is to tell a pregnant person that they can't make that choice because your religion says it's wrong. Who cares? That's your religion (ignoring, of course, that there is nowhere in the Bible that declares abortion is forbidden), not theirs. Why should what religion you follow have any effect on their autonomy? Again, there is no good argument for this.

    What anyone is supposed to do with this anecdote is a mystery to me. In order to even begin to address it, we have to first assume that you have all the relevant facts, and that you have accurately relayed them; I see no reason to assume either. It is effectively a hypothetical, and a rather convenient one at that.

    As pointed out above, that's already a thing. It was a thing when I was in high school, far too long ago. It continues to be a thing today. You are requesting something you already have. Something that is even, but the way, defended by the ACLU:

    "The ACLU works to protect public school studentsí religious freedom by curbing the practice of school-sponsored prayer and proselytizing while simultaneously ensuring that students may freely express and exercise their faith."

    You're perfectly free to tell someone abortion is wrong all you want. You're not perfectly free to prevent them from having one because your religion says it is bad. Simple.

    So it's "free speech for me but not for thee"? Learning what the intolerance paradox is may help you here. Either way, if you want to be free to express your opinion, then it is only reasonable that others are free to tell you that opinion is wrong. I'm not sure what's complicated about that.
    Bravo. Your line beginning with ďYou literally picked the worst possible exampleÖĒ was brilliant.

  15. #15
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    Oh good, someone else who doesn't comprehend my religious arguments and counters with 'you're wrong'...which is literally what I said happens. Really not sure why I keep opening these threads given it fills up with 'I'd like to discuss things and I'm open to what you say...but what you say is wrong'
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

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