Who is and isn't showing up?

[mightybosstone]

It’s the Draymond effect. Steph can create for himself off the dribble but he scores more frequently when he’s able to move without the ball in his hands. Draymond is the engine of that team. Oubre and Wiggins had been hot trash too.

I agree he's much better when he's able to move without the ball and doesn't always have to create off the dribble, and that Draymond makes a world of difference to Steph and to that team. It does bring up an interesting debate, though. For years, Warriors fans have tried to sell us on Steph's greatness and how he could carry a team regardless of the supporting cast or the system.

If he's that dependent on a secondary ball handler and an offensive system that takes the ball out of his hands, and if he's not really capable of carrying a team like other all-time great wings and guards of the last 20-30 years, doesn't that hurt his legacy a bit? I'm firmly in the "Curry hater" column, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but I like my all-time greats to be capable of carrying a team on his shoulders.

I've been on the "Durant > Curry" bandwagon for years, and his short time without KD or Klay has only further pushed me in that direction.

[warfelg]

I agree he's much better when he's able to move without the ball and doesn't always have to create off the dribble, and that Draymond makes a world of difference to Steph and to that team. It does bring up an interesting debate, though. For years, Warriors fans have tried to sell us on Steph's greatness and how he could carry a team regardless of the supporting cast or the system.

If he's that dependent on a secondary ball handler and an offensive system that takes the ball out of his hands, and if he's not really capable of carrying a team like other all-time great wings and guards of the last 20-30 years, doesn't that hurt his legacy a bit? I'm firmly in the "Curry hater" column, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but I like my all-time greats to be capable of carrying a team on his shoulders.

I've been on the "Durant > Curry" bandwagon for years, and his short time without KD or Klay has only further pushed me in that direction.

I feel like it's a "perfect player for the perfect system" style situation for Curry. Goes anywhere else and he likely develops into a great starting role player. But that system took his skills and accentuated them into a star player.

But to me it also pushes my opinion that there are very few players that can succeed without a great system in place.

[mightybosstone]

I feel like it's a "perfect player for the perfect system" style situation for Curry. Goes anywhere else and he likely develops into a great starting role player. But that system took his skills and accentuated them into a star player.

But to me it also pushes my opinion that there are very few players that can succeed without a great system in place.

Mmm... I dunno. I think if we all were to make a list of our top 25 all-time players, the vast, vast majority of those guys would have succeeded and been all-time greats regardless of their teammates or their systems. That's what makes those guys the GOATs. Even if you look at some of the guys toward the bottom of that list, that would be true. Look at Barkley, who thrived on three different franchises or KG, who thrived as stats producer in Minnesota before sacrificing production to help lead the best Celtics team in 20 years. Wade, Dirk, Durant, Robinson, Erving, Moses? All guys who played with different systems, coaches and teammates and performed well regardless.

The triangle didn't make Michael Jordan great. It made the Bulls great. The Showtime Lakers offense didn't make Magic; Magic made the Showtime Lakers. I just wonder if you take any all-time great shooter, regardless if it was a 30+ PPG kind of guy or a shooting specialist who averages 15 a night, if the Warriors are that much worse without Curry. Replace peak Steph Curry with peak Seth Curry. They might not win the 2015 Finals, but I bet they still win the two years with KD.

[warfelg]

Mmm... I dunno. I think if we all were to make a list of our top 25 all-time players, the vast, vast majority of those guys would have succeeded and been all-time greats regardless of their teammates or their systems. That's what makes those guys the GOATs. Even if you look at some of the guys toward the bottom of that list, that would be true. Look at Barkley, who thrived on three different franchises or KG, who thrived as stats producer in Minnesota before sacrificing production to help lead the best Celtics team in 20 years. Wade, Dirk, Durant, Robinson, Erving, Moses? All guys who played with different systems, coaches and teammates and performed well regardless.

The triangle didn't make Michael Jordan great. It made the Bulls great. The Showtime Lakers offense didn't make Magic; Magic made the Showtime Lakers. I just wonder if you take any all-time great shooter, regardless if it was a 30+ PPG kind of guy or a shooting specialist who averages 15 a night, if the Warriors are that much worse without Curry. Replace peak Steph Curry with peak Seth Curry. They might not win the 2015 Finals, but I bet they still win the two years with KD.

If you think in the grand scheme of how many NBA players there has been an 25 is a fraction of 1%. I'd call that a very small number.

[Hawkeye15]

Don’t forget Beasley... I’d say he’s showing up

He is playing well, for sure. I guess I expected him to though.

[Redrum187]

I'm disappointed with Luka's production. If he was a random player putting up these numbers I would be impressed, but this is not what I'm use to.

He's still hot being thicc, but he needs to lose some weight and get his shot back. I expect more from bae...

[mightybosstone]

If you think in the grand scheme of how many NBA players there has been an 25 is a fraction of 1%. I'd call that a very small number.

Right. But that's my point. Does this hurt the case for Curry to be included within that small fraction of a percent? Does an all-time great need to be great independent of the system he plays for and the guys around him? Gun to my head, Curry is still a top 25 guy, but I always thought he'd crack the top 15 and make a case for top 10. Now I'm starting to think he'll retire as a borderline top 20 guy.

[warfelg]

Right. But that's my point. Does this hurt the case for Curry to be included within that small fraction of a percent? Does an all-time great need to be great independent of the system he plays for and the guys around him? Gun to my head, Curry is still a top 25 guy, but I always thought he'd crack the top 15 and make a case for top 10. Now I'm starting to think he'll retire as a borderline top 20 guy.

I was kinda talking regardless of that. Like who are the players in the NBA that can win regardless of teammates and system? LeBron & KD? Maybe some day Luka? Because by the way people talk Giannis doesn’t belong on this list. Harden is iffy on that list. Kawhi is maybe on that list depending on how this LAC run goes.


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[R. Johnson#3]

I agree he's much better when he's able to move without the ball and doesn't always have to create off the dribble, and that Draymond makes a world of difference to Steph and to that team. It does bring up an interesting debate, though. For years, Warriors fans have tried to sell us on Steph's greatness and how he could carry a team regardless of the supporting cast or the system.

If he's that dependent on a secondary ball handler and an offensive system that takes the ball out of his hands, and if he's not really capable of carrying a team like other all-time great wings and guards of the last 20-30 years, doesn't that hurt his legacy a bit? I'm firmly in the "Curry hater" column, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but I like my all-time greats to be capable of carrying a team on his shoulders.

I've been on the "Durant > Curry" bandwagon for years, and his short time without KD or Klay has only further pushed me in that direction.

Steph is the greatest shooter of all time and there should be no argument on that. He's one of the greatest scorers too. He changed how the game is played. He's great but he can't carry a team regardless of the supporting cast. I'm not sure who said that or if that's just you getting the ol' straw man fallacy going.

I wouldn't necessarily call Draymond a ball handler. He's a guy that initiates the offence from the top of the key mostly. 1 or 2 dribbles and a pass. He also happens to be an exceptional passer. Steph just needs a good passer or two. Unfortunately neither Wiggins nor Oubre fit that bill.

I really hope Klay comes back 100% because I'd love to see their big 3 make a run without KD. They'd be more than capable if Klay is healthy. Klay capable of putting the ball on the floor. It's just that Steph is better than he is so he basically makes his living off moving without the ball in his hands and playing defence. Klay is the best player in the league at moving without the ball in his hands. Steph is 2nd. On top of all that, Wiseman looks really good.

Do people actually argue you on your Durant > Curry stance? I love Steph and hate KD but there's no argument over who's better.

[mightybosstone]

Steph is the greatest shooter of all time and there should be no argument on that. He's one of the greatest scorers too. He changed how the game is played. He's great but he can't carry a team regardless of the supporting cast. I'm not sure who said that or if that's just you getting the ol' straw man fallacy going.

Prior to the start of last season, that was the narrative and a lot of the debate regarding the Warriors. With no KD and no Klay, could Curry carry them to relevancy anyway? Warriors fans said he could. Non-Warriors fans said he couldn't. It ended up being inconclusive because of his injury, but now we're starting to see it finally play out. Not a straw-man argument.

I wouldn't necessarily call Draymond a ball handler. He's a guy that initiates the offence from the top of the key mostly. 1 or 2 dribbles and a pass. He also happens to be an exceptional passer. Steph just needs a good passer or two. Unfortunately neither Wiggins nor Oubre fit that bill.

Let's just say "playmaker." If you look at most other elite guards or wings, they're the primary playmakers and aren't as reliant as others to get them their best scoring looks. That's the point I'm making.

I really hope Klay comes back 100% because I'd love to see their big 3 make a run without KD. They'd be more than capable if Klay is healthy. Klay capable of putting the ball on the floor. It's just that Steph is better than he is so he basically makes his living off moving without the ball in his hands and playing defence. Klay is the best player in the league at moving without the ball in his hands. Steph is 2nd. On top of all that, Wiseman looks really good.

Right, but that's my point. Is it a system that is so reliant on ball movement and elite shooters and a unique playmaker like Draymond that if you take those two guys and the system out of the equation, give Steph the ball and say "win us some basketball games," he can't do it? With Draymond and Klay, I agree they're still likely a damn good basketball team, even if their peak has probably passed them by. Without them, when it's just Steph and a cast of just competent role players, I wonder if they're even a .500 basketball team.

Do people actually argue you on your Durant > Curry stance? I love Steph and hate KD but there's no argument over who's better.

Yes. Constantly. It's mostly Warriors fans, but there's a lot of other posters who think Curry is the superior player. If you did a poll, you'd get a lot of Curry votes.

[mightybosstone]

I was kinda talking regardless of that. Like who are the players in the NBA that can win regardless of teammates and system? LeBron & KD? Maybe some day Luka? Because by the way people talk Giannis doesn’t belong on this list. Harden is iffy on that list. Kawhi is maybe on that list depending on how this LAC run goes.

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I would love to see Harden continue to put up these kinds of dominant numbers in Silas' system, because it proves he can still be a legit offensive weapon off the ball and he doesn't need to rely solely on isolation to be effective. I think he's capable of it, and we've seen it in a small sample size already. If he were to be traded, I think he'd be damn effective in other offensive systems, too. Either way, I really believe getting away from D'Antoni's system will be good for him and his legacy.

Giannis and Kawhi are interesting, too. I'm inclined to give Kawhi the benefit of the doubt, because he was arguably the best player at times for San Antonio on that last title team, and he stepped in and immediately became the best player in Toronto on their title run. Giannis, I dunno. You could argue that his game is just Lebron's without a reliable jump shot. He just doesn't have the postseason resume to back it up like Lebron does.

[warfelg]

I would love to see Harden continue to put up these kinds of dominant numbers in Silas' system, because it proves he can still be a legit offensive weapon off the ball and he doesn't need to rely solely on isolation to be effective. I think he's capable of it, and we've seen it in a small sample size already. If he were to be traded, I think he'd be damn effective in other offensive systems, too. Either way, I really believe getting away from D'Antoni's system will be good for him and his legacy.

Giannis and Kawhi are interesting, too. I'm inclined to give Kawhi the benefit of the doubt, because he was arguably the best player at times for San Antonio on that last title team, and he stepped in and immediately became the best player in Toronto on their title run. Giannis, I dunno. You could argue that his game is just Lebron's without a reliable jump shot. He just doesn't have the postseason resume to back it up like Lebron does.

I guess the best way of looking at Giannis and Kawhi...if you flip them and LeBron who wins the title last year? I’d say whichever team ended up with LeBron.


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[Chronz]

I was kinda talking regardless of that. Like who are the players in the NBA that can win regardless of teammates and system? LeBron & KD? Maybe some day Luka? Because by the way people talk Giannis doesn’t belong on this list. Harden is iffy on that list. Kawhi is maybe on that list depending on how this LAC run goes.


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KD? Hes proven less than Curry has and hes had absolutely more talent besides him. Curry was getting more out of his squads before Kerr and Klay ever became big time players

[Chronz]

I guess the best way of looking at Giannis and Kawhi...if you flip them and LeBron who wins the title last year? I’d say whichever team ended up with LeBron.


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I'd say whoever got to play with another top-5 player like AD.

[ewing]

I'd say whoever got to play with another top-5 player like AD.

Agreed.


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