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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    Most of his privilege comes from wealth not skin color.

    This is one of those things we have a problem talking about. Are people of every race racist? Yes. Is the problem more one direction in this country right now? Yes. Do Black Lives Matter? Yes. Does that mean other lives don't matter? No. It's just a hot button issue and we have a habit of painting with very broad brushes and good people don't like to be painted in a way that does not apply to them.

    Just as it's fine for Stan to call out his own privilege we need to remember that it's okay for people to be offended that he appears to be calling out others who are not in his position.
    I feel like you're reading a lot into this that isn't there, and it doesn't help that OP pulled from a Washington Examiner article that's unbelievably slanted rather than the original post from the Undefeated, but I digress.

    SVG wanting to be supportive of Black Americans and calling out white privilege and the one-sided racism in this country is hardly a bad thing. Also, he's not even saying that all whites are privileged. Re-read the quote:
    ďIím a poster boy for white privilege. Iíve led a privileged life, so I only know about these issues, and these problems, and these inequities from people Iíve been associated with, work with, know, care about. I donít carry the issue. But just because something doesnít happen to you, if itís happening to people you know, if itís happening to people you care about, you care about the issue.Ē
    At no point is he saying that all whites are privileged. He's just calling out his own and admitting his own ignorance of the issue because he's white and grew up with money. Anyone who reads that is welcome to take offense to it, but I really think they're misinterpreting what the man is saying.

    As for the "systemic racism" it both does and doesn't exist. From the ideological perspective we don't really have any laws on the books that are ideologically racist against black people. What we do have is a criminal justice system that has been run off the rails in an attempt to sell safety to the people and in the process imprisoned a obscene number of black people. The vast majority of the inequality in the system is not by racial intent, but it is by racial outcome. As long as people just point at white people and say "they (or we) are the problem" it's not going to get better. The problem is that we need to make the people in power in Congress change the rules, but they keep not changing the rules for the better and we keep electing the same people over and over and hoping for a different result.

    So, yeah, Stan can express his opinion and that's fine, but he covered up a LOT of people who it doesn't apply to and it's also fine for them to say "Not me buddy".
    I don't know why you decided to write me a novel, when I wrote all of two sentences basically just saying I agree with the previous poster. Also, are you a mod anymore? Just curious, because I would have thought you should be taking that whole "this belongs in the politics forum" comments more seriously. I don't even know who the mods are anymore...

    As for the rest of your monster post, I guess I don't necessarily disagree with any of it. But I think it goes way beyond Congress. Yes, they're the ones who put laws in place allowing for Black residents to be more likely to get arrested and thrown in jail, and they're the ones who allow for the privatization of criminal justice. But it's up to individual law enforcement agencies and the entities who fund those agencies to change as well.

    Congress doesn't determine how much funding a city spends each year on law enforcement. That city does. Congress doesn't determine how much emphasis is placed on law enforcement in low-income, minority communities. That law enforcement agency does. Congress doesn't usually pass laws regarding bail. States, counties and cities usually handle those policies. Congress doesn't pull over Black residents and use excessive force, hire police officers who are known to be racist, or allow for violent officers using excessive force to keep their jobs.

    Congress can pass all the laws it wants, but it takes accountability on cities, counties and law enforcement agencies across the country to recognize the problems, too. So, yeah, I do think there's some natural systemic racism in the way law enforcement operates in this country that goes way beyond what laws do and don't get passed.


  2. #32
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    He is right. Whites aren't all racists, at an individual level. But racism isn't an individual thing, its about one race having power over another, which is what this country has been built on. Whether you believe it or not, if you are white, you have enjoyed an easier path than a black person born into your situation, and it's not even a debate. I completely understand there are plenty of whites born into crap, and have to fight for everything. But you aren't taught from a child onward to fear the police, to act a certain way to not be bothered by the police, to understand that simply surviving is succeeding in life, etc. Your property value doesn't lose value because of your skin color. You aren't passed over by sales people because of your skin color. The list goes on and on..

    As a white, it is absolutely our responsibility to stand up for equality, and if you don't believe racial inequality exists, get your head out of the sand.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  3. #33
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    I've stood up against White family members who were spewing ignorant racist garbage. I've also stood up against Black people spewing ignorant racist garbage on other Black/mixed people. You can't just look at one part of a problem and hope the problem gets fixed. That's super duper he is against White racists, but we can't put our heads in the sand towards anything racist that isn't "White-on-Black".

    This is no different than when Black people get butt-hurt when anyone (including other Black people) tell them about fatherlessness within the Black community being the single biggest issue today for them. If the goal is to fix a problem, you can't conveniently leave out a significant portion of the problem and 100% focus on other aspects that are admittedly out of their control.

    I'm sure some of you here are morbidly obese. You can't just say, "I'll exercise more so I can lose weight." and expect to actually lose the weight. Granted, exercising is a major component to losing weight, ultimately, you lose weight by burning/utilizing more calories than you consume. So you can work out every day but consume 10,000 calories and actually put more weight on. You HAVE to look at exercising in conjunction with calorie consumption when looking at the issue of your morbid obesity.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redrum187 View Post
    I've stood up against White family members who were spewing ignorant racist garbage. I've also stood up against Black people spewing ignorant racist garbage on other Black/mixed people. You can't just look at one part of a problem and hope the problem gets fixed. That's super duper he is against White racists, but we can't put our heads in the sand towards anything racist that isn't "White-on-Black".

    This is no different than when Black people get butt-hurt when anyone (including other Black people) tell them about fatherlessness within the Black community being the single biggest issue today for them. If the goal is to fix a problem, you can't conveniently leave out a significant portion of the problem and 100% focus on other aspects that are admittedly out of their control.

    I'm sure some of you here are morbidly obese. You can't just say, "I'll exercise more so I can lose weight." and expect to actually lose the weight. Granted, exercising is a major component to losing weight, ultimately, you lose weight by burning/utilizing more calories than you consume. So you can work out every day but consume 10,000 calories and actually put more weight on. You HAVE to look at exercising in conjunction with calorie consumption when looking at the issue of your morbid obesity.
    Your analogy has confused me so much that I donít even know how to make fun of it.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    I feel like you're reading a lot into this that isn't there, and it doesn't help that OP pulled from a Washington Examiner article that's unbelievably slanted rather than the original post from the Undefeated, but I digress.

    SVG wanting to be supportive of Black Americans and calling out white privilege and the one-sided racism in this country is hardly a bad thing. Also, he's not even saying that all whites are privileged. Re-read the quote:

    At no point is he saying that all whites are privileged. He's just calling out his own and admitting his own ignorance of the issue because he's white and grew up with money. Anyone who reads that is welcome to take offense to it, but I really think they're misinterpreting what the man is saying.


    I don't know why you decided to write me a novel, when I wrote all of two sentences basically just saying I agree with the previous poster. Also, are you a mod anymore? Just curious, because I would have thought you should be taking that whole "this belongs in the politics forum" comments more seriously. I don't even know who the mods are anymore...

    As for the rest of your monster post, I guess I don't necessarily disagree with any of it. But I think it goes way beyond Congress. Yes, they're the ones who put laws in place allowing for Black residents to be more likely to get arrested and thrown in jail, and they're the ones who allow for the privatization of criminal justice. But it's up to individual law enforcement agencies and the entities who fund those agencies to change as well.

    Congress doesn't determine how much funding a city spends each year on law enforcement. That city does. Congress doesn't determine how much emphasis is placed on law enforcement in low-income, minority communities. That law enforcement agency does. Congress doesn't usually pass laws regarding bail. States, counties and cities usually handle those policies. Congress doesn't pull over Black residents and use excessive force, hire police officers who are known to be racist, or allow for violent officers using excessive force to keep their jobs.

    Congress can pass all the laws it wants, but it takes accountability on cities, counties and law enforcement agencies across the country to recognize the problems, too. So, yeah, I do think there's some natural systemic racism in the way law enforcement operates in this country that goes way beyond what laws do and don't get passed.
    My post was more in reply to the whole thread than just to you, so sorry for that.

    "White privilege" is itself a polarizing phrase just like Black Lives Matter is. It doesn't really matter who is using it or how, some people are going to have an automatic response.

    Yes, humans involved at every level can do better, but the reality is that until Congress acts to change the fundamental structures things are not going to change much at the street level. Legalize all drugs, change the prison system from punishment to rehabilitation, stop locking up non-violent criminals (93% of current prisoners), mandate a higher level of training and accountability from police officers, mandate full-time body cameras, eliminate 3 strikes and mandatory minimum sentences (thanks Biden). One bill passed by congress that does those things and there will be sweeping changes in the system. Add to that in another bill with changes to social services that does not incentivize single parent homes and dump money into schools at a higher rate in the poorer communities and a lower rate in the richer communities rather than the opposite that it is now.

    Right now, from my experience (as an advocate for addicts in the Bay Area) the current treatment of people in poor communities (mostly black) by police is the result of the fundamental systems failing which results in a spiraling down of the lives of the people and the quality of the policing.

    I think we should also be moving to smaller police stations where the police live and work in the same neighborhood. I think we should give financial incentives for police to live where they work (property tax breaks etc).

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    He is right. Whites aren't all racists, at an individual level. But racism isn't an individual thing, its about one race having power over another, which is what this country has been built on. Whether you believe it or not, if you are white, you have enjoyed an easier path than a black person born into your situation, and it's not even a debate. I completely understand there are plenty of whites born into crap, and have to fight for everything. But you aren't taught from a child onward to fear the police, to act a certain way to not be bothered by the police, to understand that simply surviving is succeeding in life, etc. Your property value doesn't lose value because of your skin color. You aren't passed over by sales people because of your skin color. The list goes on and on..

    As a white, it is absolutely our responsibility to stand up for equality, and if you don't believe racial inequality exists, get your head out of the sand.
    First off, yes, in this country white people have had more money and power from the beginning.

    But, you know that there are a lot of white people that ARE taught from birth to fear the police right? Just as there are a lot of non-black brown people who are taught the same thing. And it's true in some asian communities too. It's much more about money and power than skin color for the vast majority of oppressed people.

    No pun intended, it's not nearly that black and white.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    Your analogy has confused me so much that I donít even know how to make fun of it.
    What's confusing with the analogy?

    If you're fat and decide to exercise in order to lose weight, you may exercise but not lose any weight if you're still consuming more calories than you burn. The other variable being left out is "calorie consumption". If we want to eradicate racism in the world, we can't only look at one form of it and pretend like it's only one race that is racist. We are leaving other variables out of the equation. Racism won't be eradicated if that's how we go about it.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    Your analogy has confused me so much that I donít even know how to make fun of it.
    I think he's saying that just getting white people to not be racist doesn't solve the problems of black communities, the whole system needs to be fixed? Maybe?

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redrum187 View Post
    What's confusing with the analogy?

    If you're fat and decide to exercise in order to lose weight, you may exercise but not lose any weight if you're still consuming more calories than you burn. If we want to eradicate racism in the world, we can't only look at one form of it and pretend like it's only one race that is racist.
    Your explanation didnít make it anymore clear.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    My post was more in reply to the whole thread than just to you, so sorry for that.

    "White privilege" is itself a polarizing phrase just like Black Lives Matter is. It doesn't really matter who is using it or how, some people are going to have an automatic response.

    Yes, humans involved at every level can do better, but the reality is that until Congress acts to change the fundamental structures things are not going to change much at the street level. Legalize all drugs, change the prison system from punishment to rehabilitation, stop locking up non-violent criminals (93% of current prisoners), mandate a higher level of training and accountability from police officers, mandate full-time body cameras, eliminate 3 strikes and mandatory minimum sentences (thanks Biden). One bill passed by congress that does those things and there will be sweeping changes in the system. Add to that in another bill with changes to social services that does not incentivize single parent homes and dump money into schools at a higher rate in the poorer communities and a lower rate in the richer communities rather than the opposite that it is now.

    Right now, from my experience (as an advocate for addicts in the Bay Area) the current treatment of people in poor communities (mostly black) by police is the result of the fundamental systems failing which results in a spiraling down of the lives of the people and the quality of the policing.

    I think we should also be moving to smaller police stations where the police live and work in the same neighborhood. I think we should give financial incentives for police to live where they work (property tax breaks etc).
    Agreed on the legalization of drugs. Drug usage should be looked at as an addiction, not a crime. That goes for pretty much all mental health problems in this country. It's deeply concerning that most of our jails are the largest mental health care facilities in many regions, and people with mental health issues keep getting arrested instead of getting actual help.

    Agreed on all of the other points as well. But my previous point about how local entities are enforcing laws and funding law enforcement still stands. Congress can pass and enact legislation to deal with some of the systemic issues, but more accountability has to happen at the local level for change to take place. Some of the things you're talking about here aren't things that can be passed at the federal level. States, cities and counties have to be held accountable to make change, too.

    As for how people interpret "Black Lives Matter" and "white privilege," I think people can get offended by anything in 2021. You can be offended, and that's OK I guess. But I would hope people would take two seconds to not look at the words literally at face value and understand the underlying issues behind those phrases, why they exist and what they mean. "Black Lives Matter" doesn't mean all lives don't matter, and "white privilege" doesn't assume all white people were born into wealth. It's about recognizing the systemic challenges facing Black Americans, and how white people have either benefited from being white or have contributed to those systemic challenges.


  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Agreed on the legalization of drugs. Drug usage should be looked at as an addiction, not a crime.
    Random aside that isn't fit for here, but growing up with two alcoholic uncles, I saw one go through rehab and the other imprisoned due to 3 DUI's. The one that went to prison (even though it was only 30 days in a "country club" prison) never got right and eventually passed away from liver disease, the one that went through rehab with weekends in the local station holding cell (literally in from 8-5 Sat and Sun) is alive, happy, and healthy and 20 years sober.

    I'm glad that countries that have gone to rehab after legalization are showing a dramatic decrease in crime over imprisonment without education. And even though the one time cost of rehab is most expensive, when you don't have to repeat the action it saves you more in the long term.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    Random aside that isn't fit for here, but growing up with two alcoholic uncles, I saw one go through rehab and the other imprisoned due to 3 DUI's. The one that went to prison (even though it was only 30 days in a "country club" prison) never got right and eventually passed away from liver disease, the one that went through rehab with weekends in the local station holding cell (literally in from 8-5 Sat and Sun) is alive, happy, and healthy and 20 years sober.

    I'm glad that countries that have gone to rehab after legalization are showing a dramatic decrease in crime over imprisonment without education. And even though the one time cost of rehab is most expensive, when you don't have to repeat the action it saves you more in the long term.
    We can thank the president-elect for his 1994 crime bill. Such a trash law that disproportionately affects Black people greater than any other race. The stupid "3 strikes" should be enough for any Black person to not vote for Biden... Meanwhile, the "racist" Trump actually tried to fix some of the inequalities in our judicial system and no one gives a flying f---.

    I agree, drug addicts need help, not prison. They certainly don't need to rot in prison for their rest of their life for having 3 drug related felony convictions. There is redemption from drug addiction. Other countries show how true rehab can help deliver people from the chains of addiction.
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  13. #43
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    Everyone is racist to a point. But thereís levels to it..

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Agreed on the legalization of drugs. Drug usage should be looked at as an addiction, not a crime. That goes for pretty much all mental health problems in this country. It's deeply concerning that most of our jails are the largest mental health care facilities in many regions, and people with mental health issues keep getting arrested instead of getting actual help.

    Agreed on all of the other points as well. But my previous point about how local entities are enforcing laws and funding law enforcement still stands. Congress can pass and enact legislation to deal with some of the systemic issues, but more accountability has to happen at the local level for change to take place. Some of the things you're talking about here aren't things that can be passed at the federal level. States, cities and counties have to be held accountable to make change, too.

    As for how people interpret "Black Lives Matter" and "white privilege," I think people can get offended by anything in 2021. You can be offended, and that's OK I guess. But I would hope people would take two seconds to not look at the words literally at face value and understand the underlying issues behind those phrases, why they exist and what they mean. "Black Lives Matter" doesn't mean all lives don't matter, and "white privilege" doesn't assume all white people were born into wealth. It's about recognizing the systemic challenges facing Black Americans, and how white people have either benefited from being white or have contributed to those systemic challenges.
    Agreed on all points.

    On the "funding" our local governments use, I would also like to solve that at a national level but it's more of a radical approach. I think all fines and fees collected by the government for law enforcement should go to community service charities in the home area of the offender, and make it illegal for law enforcement to fund any government agency full stop.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redrum187 View Post
    We can thank the president-elect for his 1994 crime bill. Such a trash law that disproportionately affects Black people greater than any other race. The stupid "3 strikes" should be enough for any Black person to not vote for Biden... Meanwhile, the "racist" Trump actually tried to fix some of the inequalities in our judicial system and no one gives a flying f---.

    I agree, drug addicts need help, not prison. They certainly don't need to rot in prison for their rest of their life for having 3 drug related felony convictions. There is redemption from drug addiction. Other countries show how true rehab can help deliver people from the chains of addiction.
    While I agree Biden was a major contributor to the current state of our prison system, let's also not forget that it started with Nixon and was continued and expanded by every single President since, but Democrats and Republicans. Fear sells, and unfortunately rehab doesn't.

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