Like us on Facebook


Follow us on Twitter





Page 13 of 17 FirstFirst ... 31112131415 ... LastLast
Results 181 to 195 of 243
  1. #181
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    17,982
    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn2timer View Post
    And I think the tanking rules are a step in the right direction they will need to be tweaked and fine tuned as we the years go on, but already there is clearly no reason to aggressively race yourself to the bottom. And that's good for the sport IMO
    For all the fashionable talk about how the league sustains its interest, and the NBA is soft, take away the pandemic and the NBA/basketball was easily the fastest rising sport in the WORLD. Not even close.
    I get it but I think it ultimately hurts teams more than it helps the league.

    Also itís a small sample so we donít really know if itís working. Two out of the bottom three teams just had the top two picks. The year before the Knicks were the worst team and still picked third. So far the worst team hasnít picked lower than third and the odds for those results during that first year were less than 1%. Thereís still value in limiting how far the team can fall.

    Ultimately if it works like you would like, thereís going to be a situation where the bad teams will just continue to stay bad. Thereís just not enough talent in these drafts and with the NBA being so dependent on stars to win, itís a recipe for disaster.
    Last edited by smood999; 12-30-2020 at 01:08 PM.

  2. #182
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    51,295
    Quote Originally Posted by smood999 View Post
    I get it but I think they ultimately hurt teams more than it helps the league.

    Also itís a small sample so we donít really know if itís working. Two out of the bottom three teams just had the top two picks. The year before the Knicks were the worst team and still picked third. So far the worst team hasnít picked lower than third and the odds for those results during that first year were less than 1%. Thereís still value in limiting how far the team can fall.

    Ultimately if it works like you would like, thereís going to be a situation where the bad teams will just continue to stay bad. Thereís just not enough talent in these drafts and with the NBA being so dependent on stars to win, itís a recipe for disaster.

    Agreed, I think there is a lot of tweaking that needs to be done. They can also throw in if you bad multiple years you can't fall past the third pick or something, there has to be something for just being bad and not tanking, the math is not there, and it can be.

  3. #183
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Queenz
    Posts
    7,290
    Quote Originally Posted by Bivory View Post
    Knicks are doing a masterful job at masking our PG issues. Payton was taking the big shots in last nights game and if he missed those shots as we've seen him do many times, this thread would be much different today. Watching the ball go back and forth between Randle and Payton all night, was a little annoying, not gonna lie.
    How many of Randle's assists were to Payton?

  4. #184
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    17,982
    Quote Originally Posted by Bivory View Post
    Knicks are doing a masterful job at masking our PG issues. Payton was taking the big shots in last nights game and if he missed those shots as we've seen him do many times, this thread would be much different today. Watching the ball go back and forth between Randle and Payton all night, was a little annoying, not gonna lie.
    I donít see Randle just passing it to Payton. Heís finding everyone.

    This obviously isnít a permanent solution, but itís fine for the time being. Randle playing this way is just a mismatch every time down the court for the defense.

    I AM NOT SAYING THAT RANDLE IS AS GOOD, but the Pelicans are also using Zion more in this capacity as well. Itís how he was used at times at Duke. Itís why people compared Zion and Randleís playing styles. Obviously how they both went about it was a major difference along with Zion being a superior athlete. It can be advantageous if done correctly and so far, so good.

  5. #185
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Queenz
    Posts
    7,290
    Quote Originally Posted by smood999 View Post
    I get it but I think they ultimately hurt teams more than it helps the league.

    Also itís a small sample so we donít really know if itís working. Two out of the bottom three teams just had the top two picks. The year before the Knicks were the worst team and still picked third. So far the worst team hasnít picked lower than third and the odds for those results during that first year were less than 1%. Thereís still value in limiting how far the team can fall.

    Ultimately if it works like you would like, thereís going to be a situation where the bad teams will just continue to stay bad. Thereís just not enough talent in these drafts and with the NBA being so dependent on stars to win, itís a recipe for disaster.
    A few things - I agree with you lets where we are in a few years, Silver seems very amenable to tweaking.

    Second thing - The rules just changed, so the bad teams that were staying bad ala the Knicks, the Kings, Hornets, Warriors, there are others before Curry etc have been staying bad irrespective of whatever the lottery rules were. Even Cleveland fumbled with a bunch of top picks before Lebron came back. My point here is that in theory the Knicks could convince two superstars to join forces next year with this skeleton and the lottery rules will not have hurt them in pursuing this strategy. Hell they could've done it last year, we know this...

    We have done nothing but complain about parity in the NBA going on 30 years now. So here's my thing I like the idea that a team on its way up can win the lottery and add to its firepower. As in teams can get better without necessarily having to tear it down and become a complete eyesore. That's ok for the Knicks who sell our regardless, not so good for the Hawks.

    Perhaps you guys have forgotten that half the league seemed to be discussing tanking in November a few years ago. And given that like you said there are only a few superstars, usually right at the top, you can't blame them for that. I don't understand how you guys think that's good for the league.

  6. #186
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Queenz
    Posts
    7,290
    Quote Originally Posted by still a fan View Post
    Agreed, I think there is a lot of tweaking that needs to be done. They can also throw in if you bad multiple years you can't fall past the third pick or something, there has to be something for just being bad and not tanking, the math is not there, and it can be.
    So that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. That's an interesting suggestion. You have to build on it, but it's a step in the right direction

  7. #187
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    893

    Needless to Say?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn2timer View Post
    Needless to say I disagree - There isn't a single team in the Eastern conference that hasn't made a proper run at the title or atleast won multiple 50+ win seasons in the last 20 years. Besides the Hornets, and they are an expansion team.
    I think folks will find a way to cry about the setup no matter what it is.
    I guess I wasn't very clear - not trying to make excuses for Knicks management.
    That being said, I stand by what I said - it ain't easy building thru the draft, period.

    You're right, every team in the East has had their day in the sun over the last twenty years, but it's a lot harder now.

    The draft used to be more relevent until they started letting kids in diapers into the league.

    Once LeBron started superstars picking their teams, things have gotten a lot more difficult for the have-nots.

    And, since the lottery started, it's much harder to build thru the draft for the reasons I gave earlier - there are very few primo players after the top five.

    Just looking over the past decade, nobody built a champion thru the draft alone:
    Cleveland built thru the draft because they got LeBron at number 1
    Philly got decent by tanking, which you can't do anymore
    The Celtics stayed on top because of the insane trade with the Nets
    Miami had Riley, but they also got LeBron and later Butler to get them over the top
    Milwaukee lucked out getting Giannis at #15 in the '13 draft
    Ujiri has done well at Toronto but they won when they got Leonard for that year
    Atlanta has fallen on hard times
    Indiana has been on a good but not great treadmill
    Washington has fallen on hard times
    Sean Marks did a great job with the Nets, but they were hardly contenders until they got Irving and Durant.
    Orlando, Charlotte, Detroit and Chicago are perennial doormats with us

    The point I'm trying to make isn't excusing poor Knick management, it's that even for teams that are managed well, things have trended very poorly over the past decade for letting teams build thru the draft to compete. And for a poorly managed team like the Knicks, it's become impossible with things the way they are.

  8. #188
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    17,982
    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn2timer View Post
    A few things - I agree with you lets where we are in a few years, Silver seems very amenable to tweaking.

    Second thing - The rules just changed, so the bad teams that were staying bad ala the Knicks, the Kings, Hornets, Warriors, there are others before Curry etc have been staying bad irrespective of whatever the lottery rules were. Even Cleveland fumbled with a bunch of top picks before Lebron came back. My point here is that in theory the Knicks could convince two superstars to join forces next year with this skeleton and the lottery rules will not have hurt them in pursuing this strategy. Hell they could've done it last year, we know this...

    We have done nothing but complain about parity in the NBA going on 30 years now. So here's my thing I like the idea that a team on its way up can win the lottery and add to its firepower. As in teams can get better without necessarily having to tear it down and become a complete eyesore. That's ok for the Knicks who sell our regardless, not so good for the Hawks.

    Perhaps you guys have forgotten that half the league seemed to be discussing tanking in November a few years ago. And given that like you said there are only a few superstars, usually right at the top, you can't blame them for that. I don't understand how you guys think that's good for the league.
    I donít think either is good for the league. I just think this is even worse. The Knicks have a shot in free agency due to market. What about the small market teams that have no chance at landing top free agents? The draft is all they have.

    Yes a rising team can add to their fire power, but now so can a team that just went on a 10 year run and are slowly coming down, then boom it turns into only a one or two year playoff absence. Thatís literally what just happened with the Mavs under the old rules but they actually tanked. Thereís potential to see more of that under the new rules without those teams ever truly being and needing those picks.

    I mean I would say it already backfired seeing as a decent Lakers team with LeBron moved up from 10 to 4 enabling them to get AD. Thatís the kind of stuff that just canít happen and the whole reason why the draft in every pro sports league is set up in inverse order of the standings. Itís worse in the NBA because where else will small market teams turn if they canít get a high draft pick?

    When I was pointing out that the new system can potentially keep bad teams bad for longer period of times, I wasnít referring to these past two years. I meant long term.

    Also look at what the lottery as a whole has created. A team like the Knicks hasnít had the number 1 overall pick since 1985 and has only picked in the top 5 twice since 1986 and top 7 three times I believe. Meanwhile teams like Cleveland have had several number 1 picks in a ten year span. New Orleans went from AD to Zion. The Lakers picked 2nd three years in a row and then fourth. The year before the string of picking second, they picked 7th. So in a five year span they picked in the top 7 five times, while the Knicks have done that three times in 35 years. The whole thing is just a mess.

    Any system where the same teams can benefit over and over again and over teams that actually need it, is extremely flawed. To tie it all back together, the new system potentially makes that even worse.
    Last edited by smood999; 12-30-2020 at 02:10 PM.

  9. #189
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    893
    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn2timer View Post
    A few things - I agree with you lets where we are in a few years, Silver seems very amenable to tweaking.

    Second thing - The rules just changed, so the bad teams that were staying bad ala the Knicks, the Kings, Hornets, Warriors, there are others before Curry etc have been staying bad irrespective of whatever the lottery rules were. Even Cleveland fumbled with a bunch of top picks before Lebron came back. My point here is that in theory the Knicks could convince two superstars to join forces next year with this skeleton and the lottery rules will not have hurt them in pursuing this strategy. Hell they could've done it last year, we know this...

    We have done nothing but complain about parity in the NBA going on 30 years now. So here's my thing I like the idea that a team on its way up can win the lottery and add to its firepower. As in teams can get better without necessarily having to tear it down and become a complete eyesore. That's ok for the Knicks who sell our regardless, not so good for the Hawks.

    Perhaps you guys have forgotten that half the league seemed to be discussing tanking in November a few years ago. And given that like you said there are only a few superstars, usually right at the top, you can't blame them for that. I don't understand how you guys think that's good for the league.
    There needs to be, in my mind, a multi pronged approach to the issue
    The reason teams needed to tank is so that they could get their hands on a superstar.
    They also needed to tank because you can't build with anything but top two or three picks.

    You can't let all of the superstars congregate on a couple of teams (unless they were drafted by that team)
    There just aren't enough of them going around and the only alternative to get one was to tank.
    And now, with the lottery, even that doesn't work. The three year rolling average concept seems like a better alternative than lottery to me.

    You need to keep 18 and 19 year olds out of the draft. Maybe even 20 year olds. If this were the case, the guys you would be drafting at number 8 or 10 or 12 would be more NBA ready and would help you immediately.
    Right now, drafting at number 8 and not being able to use the kid because he's still a baby doesn't help anyone and is another incentive to tank. It also is counter to being able to build a good team thru the draft.

    You can't compare what's going on now to what the NBA was seven or eight years ago, let alone twenty.
    Right now, it's luck out in the lottery and get the 1,2,or 3 pick and get lucky or beg some pair of superstars to join your team. I can't think of a much worse system. Meanwhile, there are at least a couple of dozen teams just spinning their wheels year after year.

  10. #190
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Queenz
    Posts
    7,290
    Quote Originally Posted by smood999 View Post
    I donít think either is good for the league. I just think this is even worse. The Knicks have a shot in free agency due to market. What about the small market teams that have no chance at landing top free agents? The draft is all they have.

    Yes a rising team can add to their fire power, but now so can a team that just went on a 10 year run and are slowly coming down, then boom it turns into only a one or two year playoff absence. Thatís literally what just happened with the Mavs under the old rules but they actually tanked. Thereís potential to see more of that under the new rules without those teams ever truly being and needing those picks.

    I mean I would say it already backfired seeing as a decent Lakers team with LeBron moved up from 10 to 4 enabling them to get AD. Thatís the kind of stuff that just canít happen and the whole reason why the draft in every pro sports league is set up in inverse order of the standings. Itís worse in the NBA because where else will small market teams turn if they canít get a high draft pick?

    When I was pointing out that the new system can potentially keep bad teams bad for longer period of times, I wasnít referring to these past two years. I meant long term.
    Mavs made a good trade to grab a player in the draft they clearly liked more than others. Seems to me anyone could've done that. Sounds like anyone would've traded a top 5 pick in this last draft. The point doesn't play out like you guys insist it always does. Lakers got lucky, what do you want me to say haha

    Okay here's the thing about your last point I concede none of it is ideal but which other pro league are you comparing NBA to? Like I just watched the Jets win the most meaningless games in the world and they did it without hesitation potentially missing out on the next Peyton Manning. No one seems to tank in football they just don't have the same issues we do. They play 16 games a year and they play each one like a matter of life and death.
    I don't really follow Hockey but didnt Rangers just win the first pick or something? They very much do have a draft lottery. I know enough about Baseball that the draft is of completely different significance.

    I also think the wind is being taken out of the big market argument, the salary cap is so high, there are other things at play besides prime market. Ofc there is preference of which city players want to live in. But Giannis just resigned with the Bucks in Milwaukee. Miami wasn't a big market and neither was Cleveland. But I get away from the point. Which is that the NBA has a long competitive season and tanking to get a top pick makes the product demonstrably worse. I'm not sure what else I can say on it.

  11. #191
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Queenz
    Posts
    7,290
    just looked it up haha
    Rangers win 2020 NHL draft lottery, now have No. 1 overall pick.
    Any leagues I'm missing? Does MLS draft?

  12. #192
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    28,371
    I have nothing intelligent to add to the discussion. Just wanted to read the posts and say I can't believe how much fun I'm having watch Randle and Elfrid Payton


    Kristaps Porzingis
    Stronger than most 15 year old girls.

  13. #193
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    5,098
    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    I have nothing intelligent to add to the discussion. Just wanted to read the posts and say I can't believe how much fun I'm having watch Randle and Elfrid Payton
    All that matters is we have fun.

  14. #194
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Queenz
    Posts
    7,290
    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    I have nothing intelligent to add to the discussion. Just wanted to read the posts and say I can't believe how much fun I'm having watch Randle and Elfrid Payton
    Rest assured it won't last but right on!

  15. #195
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    17,982
    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn2timer View Post
    Mavs made a good trade to grab a player in the draft they clearly liked more than others. Seems to me anyone could've done that. Sounds like anyone would've traded a top 5 pick in this last draft. The point doesn't play out like you guys insist it always does. Lakers got lucky, what do you want me to say haha

    Okay here's the thing about your last point I concede none of it is ideal but which other pro league are you comparing NBA to? Like I just watched the Jets win the most meaningless games in the world and they did it without hesitation potentially missing out on the next Peyton Manning. No one seems to tank in football they just don't have the same issues we do. They play 16 games a year and they play each one like a matter of life and death.
    I don't really follow Hockey but didnt Rangers just win the first pick or something? They very much do have a draft lottery. I know enough about Baseball that the draft is of completely different significance.

    I also think the wind is being taken out of the big market argument, the salary cap is so high, there are other things at play besides prime market. Ofc there is preference of which city players want to live in. But Giannis just resigned with the Bucks in Milwaukee. Miami wasn't a big market and neither was Cleveland. But I get away from the point. Which is that the NBA has a long competitive season and tanking to get a top pick makes the product demonstrably worse. I'm not sure what else I can say on it.
    The Mavs traded up from 5 to 3. Only one team has traded completely out of the top 5 in the last 20 years (I didnít go back any farther, but imagine it would be similar). If they donít end up with Doncic, they still get Trae Young. So no, itís not something that any team couldíve done and itís very much another benefit teams get from being in the top 5 of a draft.

    Giannis re-signed with his team. LeBron went back to his original team. Miami is an exception for obvious reasons. Small market teams donít get premiere free agents. The closest thing weíve seen to that is the Spurs signing LaMarcus Aldridge and Iím not sure that even counts. For as good as some of those organizations have been, it doesnít translate to signing free agents.

    Hockey has a lottery system and in the NFL it doesnít matter unless the team needs a QB because of the depth of talent and the fact that there are 22 starting positions that need to be filled. Regardless, I was just pointing out the whole premise of how and why all drafts were originally setup without a lottery. It was a way to make sure that the rich donít keep getting richer while the poor keeps getting poorer and to have some semblance of parity. It didnít work in the NBA because of all the the things weíve mentioned, but that doesnít mean that the NBA should make it even worse, which is what will potentially happen with the way the lottery is now setup.

    This is also while the issue of tanking still exists. If weíre being honest, all they did was find something so other GMs wouldnít follow Hinkieís philosophy. Teams are now just back to their normal tanking ways though.
    Last edited by smood999; 12-30-2020 at 03:04 PM.

Page 13 of 17 FirstFirst ... 31112131415 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •