2020/21 Off-Season Thread

[GibbyIsMyHero]

Ironic? Me thinks you don’t understand the word.

You accuse my well reasoned counter argument of being driven by personal prejudices, then your entire ensuing counter argument was based on blind faith and allegiance to our FO.

If you think my arguments are prejudiced against Trevor Bauer then, by all means, beyond all the statistical relevance I’ve provided in conjunction with all of the other issues I’ve pointed out, show me where my “prejudice” comes in to play. I’ll wait.

The reality is that these issues do exist with Trevor Bauer. If they didn’t exist with Trevor Bauer, I wouldn’t be able to speak to them. Could I speak this way about Justin Turner? Nope. Yasiel Puig? Yup. Clayton Kershaw? Not even remotely. Trevor Bauer? Absolutely. He’s opened himself up for this criticism and he’s not a good enough player to get a pass, certainly not after also getting more money than he’s worth.

I’ve already made the statistical case against Trevor Bauer. Please, go ahead and make the statistical case in favor of him... because so far, all I’ve seen is a bunch of empty glib.

To be clear, broadly defending the FO is not an argument for Bauer. Does it have relevance to this discussion? Sure, but it’s not the topic. I’ve been one of the staunchest supporters of this FO since it arrived, but that doesn’t mean they are immune to criticism. Sure, it’s low risk because it’s a 3 year deal, but would it palatable for you to give that same deal to...?

CAREER SIMILARITY SCORES
Chris Young (Padres)
Mike Fiers
Ben McDonald
Sonny Gray
Tanner Roark
Julio Teheran
Chuck Dobson
Patrick Corbin
Mat Latos
Chad Billingley

SIMILARITY THROUGH AGE 29
Ben McDonald
Ken Hill
Ubaldo Jimenez
James Shields
Patrick Corbin
Matt Garza
Kevin Brown (FWIW, sucked until he was 31)
Scott Kazmir

The only argument for a name on that list is Kevin Brown who was similar through age 29, but Brown wasn’t very good until his age 31 season. Could Bauer be closer to the anomaly on this list than he is to everyone else? It’s possible, but unlikely. BTW, that’s just a hope for the future, not a merit based argument. And still, people talk about Kevin Brown as if that was one of the worst Dodgers contracts ever. Also note, Scott Kazmir is on that list and he didn’t work out too well for this FO.

Why do you think that Machado, Puig, and Kemp are good examples of successfully managing teammates that are bad for chemistry? Let’s go chronologically...

This FO took over for the 2015 season and paid a shitload of money to move Kemp before he had a chance to play for them. They only brought him back for one season in a salary swap late in his career when Kemp’s reputation as a diva had seemed to have significantly subsided.

Puig’s reputation as a Dodger is riddled with clubhouse distraction stories and only got worse after he left. The FO loved his potential, but his reputation was clearly a concern for acquiring teams. We traded him and never even considered a reunion. Why would we trade somebody with talent if we felt his maturity issues weren’t a problem? This FO isn’t afraid to let players it wants to retain hit free agency if that’s what the player wants (JT and Kenley for example).

Machado spent less than half a season here (66 games) and, outside of Manny’s dad claiming we did, there doesn’t seem to be any evidence that we made him an offer to stay.

What team successes did we have with those players that indicates they were not a problem? What similarities do they share with the Bauer deal?

So, you have a lot of faith in the FO? Cool. I do too. Does that mean they’re infallible? Does that mean every deal is a good one? Does that mean Brandon McCarthy and Scott Kazmir were worth the investment?

If you haven’t watched the “YouTube” video because it’s a “YouTube” video, then that’s willfull ignorance on your part. This isn’t a conspiracy theory video, it’s literally a journaling of Trevor Bauer openly bragging about cheating. I mean, how far will you go to say a guy isn’t cheating when he’s literally saying everything just short of “I’m cheating”.

Alternatively, you can find tons of articles online that say the same thing, or just follow the dude’s Twitter. I chose to post the video because it’s easy to watch and well put together.

And, correction - Trevor Bauer was the 2ND best pitcher in the league last year - a total of 11 games - and he unabashedly cheated to get there.

I’m not trying to convince anyone this was a bad deal. But I also don’t think this forum has to be two sides of a line in the sand as it most always is.

You’ve pledged blind faith and allegiance in the FO - duly noted. Others hate the FO without reason.

I think the FO is the best in the league and I also think they’re not beyond criticism. No one is beyond criticism. You don’t have to like that I don’t like this deal. You also don’t have to try to hide my very well-reasoned arguments behind a veil that I’m just prejudiced against Trevor Bauer’s “politics” to try and score points with people that do like the deal. Again, show me where my “prejudice” comes in to play or stop accusing me of it.

I don’t like this deal for the reasons I’ve mentioned. Again, I hope I’m wrong about it.

[sonofdad]

Ironic? Me thinks you don’t understand the word.

You accuse my well reasoned counter argument of being driven by personal prejudices, then your entire ensuing counter argument was based on blind faith and allegiance to our FO.

If you think my arguments are prejudiced against Trevor Bauer then, by all means, beyond all the statistical relevance I’ve provided in conjunction with all of the other issues I’ve pointed out, show me where my “prejudice” comes in to play. I’ll wait.

The reality is that these issues do exist with Trevor Bauer. If they didn’t exist with Trevor Bauer, I wouldn’t be able to speak to them. Could I speak this way about Justin Turner? Nope. Yasiel Puig? Yup. Clayton Kershaw? Not even remotely. Trevor Bauer? Absolutely. He’s opened himself up for this criticism and he’s not a good enough player to get a pass, certainly not after also getting more money than he’s worth.

I’ve already made the statistical case against Trevor Bauer. Please, go ahead and make the statistical case in favor of him... because so far, all I’ve seen is a bunch of empty glib.

To be clear, broadly defending the FO is not an argument for Bauer. Does it have relevance to this discussion? Sure, but it’s not the topic. I’ve been one of the staunchest supporters of this FO since it arrived, but that doesn’t mean they are immune to criticism. Sure, it’s low risk because it’s a 3 year deal, but would it palatable for you to give that same deal to...?

CAREER SIMILARITY SCORES
Chris Young (Padres)
Mike Fiers
Ben McDonald
Sonny Gray
Tanner Roark
Julio Teheran
Chuck Dobson
Patrick Corbin
Mat Latos
Chad Billingley

SIMILARITY THROUGH AGE 29
Ben McDonald
Ken Hill
Ubaldo Jimenez
James Shields
Patrick Corbin
Matt Garza
Kevin Brown (FWIW, sucked until he was 31)
Scott Kazmir

The only argument for a name on that list is Kevin Brown who was similar through age 29, but Brown wasn’t very good until his age 31 season. Could Bauer be closer to the anomaly on this list than he is to everyone else? It’s possible, but unlikely. BTW, that’s just a hope for the future, not a merit based argument. And still, people talk about Kevin Brown as if that was one of the worst Dodgers contracts ever. Also note, Scott Kazmir is on that list and he didn’t work out too well for this FO.

Why do you think that Machado, Puig, and Kemp are good examples of successfully managing teammates that are bad for chemistry? Let’s go chronologically...

This FO took over for the 2015 season and paid a shitload of money to move Kemp before he had a chance to play for them. They only brought him back for one season in a salary swap late in his career when Kemp’s reputation as a diva had seemed to have significantly subsided.

Puig’s reputation as a Dodger is riddled with clubhouse distraction stories and only got worse after he left. The FO loved his potential, but his reputation was clearly a concern for acquiring teams. We traded him and never even considered a reunion. Why would we trade somebody with talent if we felt his maturity issues weren’t a problem? This FO isn’t afraid to let players it wants to retain hit free agency if that’s what the player wants (JT and Kenley for example).

Machado spent less than half a season here (66 games) and, outside of Manny’s dad claiming we did, there doesn’t seem to be any evidence that we made him an offer to stay.

What team successes did we have with those players that indicates they were not a problem? What similarities do they share with the Bauer deal?

So, you have a lot of faith in the FO? Cool. I do too. Does that mean they’re infallible? Does that mean every deal is a good one? Does that mean Brandon McCarthy and Scott Kazmir were worth the investment?

If you haven’t watched the “YouTube” video because it’s a “YouTube” video, then that’s willfull ignorance on your part. This isn’t a conspiracy theory video, it’s literally a journaling of Trevor Bauer openly bragging about cheating. I mean, how far will you go to say a guy isn’t cheating when he’s literally saying everything just short of “I’m cheating”.

Alternatively, you can find tons of articles online that say the same thing, or just follow the dude’s Twitter. I chose to post the video because it’s easy to watch and well put together.

And, correction - Trevor Bauer was the 2ND best pitcher in the league last year - a total of 11 games - and he unabashedly cheated to get there.

I’m not trying to convince anyone this was a bad deal. But I also don’t think this forum has to be two sides of a line in the sand as it most always is.

You’ve pledged blind faith and allegiance in the FO - duly noted. Others hate the FO without reason.

I think the FO is the best in the league and I also think they’re not beyond criticism. No one is beyond criticism. You don’t have to like that I don’t like this deal. You also don’t have to try to hide my very well-reasoned arguments behind a veil that I’m just prejudiced against Trevor Bauer’s “politics” to try and score points with people that do like the deal. Again, show me where my “prejudice” comes in to play or stop accusing me of it.

I don’t like this deal for the reasons I’ve mentioned. Again, I hope I’m wrong about it.

The Irony is about you calling out the other posters. You seem to insinuate that they can't criticize the front office as being idiots in the past, and then get behind this move. All in or all out, right? Yet, you basically come at me for being "all in". Which is it? You want fans to only take one side or the other, or do you want them to be able to change their mind, and have differing opinions from time to time? Maybe you just want to tell everyone what the rules are, and have them fall in line with what they should think or feel? That would certainly be easier.

My point about the Youtube videos is that you are doing what you always do...acting like you have some moral or intellectual superiority that everyone else missed, including our own front office, and of course the rest of the posters on this board. You just doubled down on that again, suggesting a lack of buy-in to what you're selling constitutes ignorance, or perhaps stupidity.

If we just listen to you, we would understand better, and stop being fooled by last season's results and what we witnessed in his 1 postseason start vs. the Braves. Nothing to get excited about, right?

Of course there are no guarantees. No one believes in absolutes whether it be faith in players or front office.

[bkt42]

Comparing Bauer over his "career body of work" is asinine.

There is a reason that just about EVERY ranking of the top starters in the game right now have him in their top 5. It is DeGrom, Cole and Bauer almost consistently in their top 5.

Why? Because he isn't the same pitcher he was earlier in his career. It would be like evaluating Justin Verlander during his early years with Detroit (before winning his first Cy Young at age 28, a year younger than Trevor was). Cole (still without a CY) was nothing really to brag about until he arrived in Houston and hell even DeGrom didn't figure it all out until he was 30.

No, he isn't in the same league as DeGrom and I would probably put him a notch below Cole, but considering he is almost 3 years younger than the former and some 6 months the later, I like this short term deal and it is worth the risk.

2019 was filtered with some bad starts in his transition in-season move from Cleveland to Cincy, but I think odds are it was an outlier for the new Trevor Bauer. A mechanic who simply doesn't walk anyone like he used to and really has harnessed his game.

I cant think of a starting pitcher I would put above him other than those two. Bieber probably, but that is evaluating him on one solid season- albeit a Cy Young short one. Darvish? No, even with his comeback I can't put him over Trevor (who he lost the Cy Young to). Scherzer is on the decline. Nola's numbers simply don't compare. Buehler and Giolito aren't there yet.

I mean it is laughable to suggest he isn't one of the best in the game right now.

Of course he is and we just added him to a rotation that still has Kershaw (borderline Top 10), quickly approaching stud top 5 guy in Buehler (who has about 10 million in incentives to shoot for), one of the better young southpaws in the game in Urias and a trio of young right-handers with good to exceptional stuff on the way in May, Gonsolin and Gray. Oh, and a former Cy Young winner himself in Price coming back to boot

Enough with the insanity...

[GibbyIsMyHero]

The Irony is about you calling out the other posters.

Firstly - that's still not irony, it's hypocrisy, and it doesn't apply here.

Secondly - who did I call out?

I said days before the signing that I wouldn't want him to play here... No one replied except my boy WS42 making a joke that Bauer likely wouldn't get along with the clubhouse chemistry. Outside of that comment, no one seemed to care what I wrote one way or the other,

Then Bauer signed and everyone else was happy. I didn't even comment because it doesn't excite me personally. In fact, I only commented because you called me out by fabricating the idea that me not wanting him is entirely based on my alleged prejudice of his politics.

I simply responded to list the many reasons the signing is not appealing to me and that it goes far beyond politics... Emphasis on WHY THIS SIGNING IS NOT APPEALING TO ME.

Again, you don't have to agree with me but you can bet your *** I'm going to respond to the presumption that I don't want someone simply because I have some prejudice against his "politics". Doubling down on that suggestion and ignoring my actual points to hide my response from everyone else also isn't going to go unnoticed; it will also get a reply.

You seem to insinuate that they can't criticize the front office as being idiots in the past, and then get behind this move.

Ok, so now we're moving from general glibness into ad-hominem and water muddying.

To clarify, I'm in general agreement with being critical of authority, even - and perhaps moreso - authorities one generally supports. When someone puts a well-reasoned argument together, I'm absolutely in favor of hearing it, discussing, and even debating it. What I was referencing is the ridiculous nature of blindly being "always for" something, or always "against it".

Specifically, when I criticize critiques, it's generally one's that make little to no sense. For example, when someone who always seems to be on the side "always against" the FO or Manager criticizes a manager for using the wrong hitter, not until after having the results and with no sound reasoning other than having the benefit of said results, that's pure nonsense.

Tell me where I've told people that they must be all in or all out?

I also often criticize the actions of people I mostly align with when it's warranted. If this FO makes a deal I like, I defend it. Sometimes it blows up in my face; 5 or so years ago, I (IRONICALLY) sided with them on McCarthy and Kazmir because they were "short term" and, therefore, were good risks. Sure, Bauer doesn't bear the health issues of Kazmir and McCarthy, but neither of the latter came with anywhere near the baggage of the former. AND Bauer is going to be paid more than the entire payroll of 4 different teams in 2021 and possibly 2022. Is he really worth that?

Before you say that $34M isn't a big deal for this FO, mind you, I've been suggesting that we could potentially sign both Lindor and Seager and people have been telling me I'm crazy... Do you think this deal for Bauer makes the possibility of getting both of these guys more or less likely? It's certain to at least have some impact, no?

All in or all out, right? Yet, you basically come at me for being "all in". Which is it? You want fans to only take one side or the other, or do you want them to be able to change their mind, and have differing opinions from time to time? Maybe you just want to tell everyone what the rules are, and have them fall in line with what they should think or feel? That would certainly be easier.

Again, when did I suggest you have to be all in or all out? There are generally two scenarios wherein I engage in debate with posters in this forum; (1) when they come after my posts - especially without good reasoning. (2) When they essentially never have anything positive to say and, then, only in the case that they go hard after something non-sensical.

I don't have any rules; I post my opinions and if people come after them, they should be prepared for debate. Do you have rules for me? Because as far as I can tell I posted an opinion you didn't like and you came after it multiple times on this same topic. Am I mischaracterizing this?

My point about the Youtube videos is that you are doing what you always do...acting like you have some moral or intellectual superiority that everyone else missed, including our own front office, and of course the rest of the posters on this board. You just doubled down on that again, suggesting a lack of buy-in to what you're selling constitutes ignorance, or perhaps stupidity.

Lol... So I shouldn't post supporting evidence for my topic points because you think that it makes me look like I'm arguing from a position of moral/or intellectual superiority?

So who is it that appears to be making rules for this forum? I literally said the other day that I just found out about all of the Trevor Bauer social media nastiness. I shared that video because if I just found out about, I'm sure plenty other people were also not aware - not because I think I know things that you don't... And I'm not sorry if you feel that way.

If we just listen to you, we would understand better, and stop being fooled by last season's results and what we witnessed in his 1 postseason start vs. the Braves. Nothing to get excited about, right?

If you just listened to me, you'd be a puppet. If I just listened to the FO, I'd be a puppet. Do you see the hypocrisy in your statement?

I'm not telling you not to get excited about 1 start vs the Braves, or 1.3 non-consecutive seasons of outstanding baseball.

I'm telling you that I don't look at all of this things in separate vacuums. When I look at the whole picture that I, PERSONALLY, am not excited for it.

Do you need me to agree with you?

Of course there are no guarantees. No one believes in absolutes whether it be faith in players or front office.

Yeah, that's basically what I said, except one of us used the whole picture in making his case, and the other keeps trying to tell him to change his mind because the FO is great.

Again, I don't disagree on the FO, I just don't agree on Bauer. These are not mutually exclusive ideas

[GibbyIsMyHero]

Comparing Bauer over his "career body of work" is asinine.

As asinine as it was to believe the R.A. Dickey was the best pitcher in baseball at one time? As asinine as it was to believe that Jake Arrieta was going to overtake that mantle from Clayton Kershaw based on a half season of baseball?

What's more asinine, taking a pitcher for his full scope of work, or 1/3 of a season of dominant baseball?

There is a reason that just about EVERY ranking of the top starters in the game right now have him in their top 5. It is DeGrom, Cole and Bauer almost consistently in their top 5.

Yeah, and that reason is entirely based on 1/3 of a season of baseball wherein he increased his spin rate to levels unforeseen; a result which he himself has consistently said is impossible to do without cheating and, in turn, he himself smugly continues to suggest that he is doing.

...he isn't the same pitcher he was earlier in his career.

You're right, because he admittedly is being aided by a foreign substance.

It would be like evaluating Justin Verlander during his early years with Detroit (before winning his first Cy Young at age 28, a year younger than Trevor was). Cole (still without a CY) was nothing really to brag about until he arrived in Houston and hell even DeGrom didn't figure it all out until he was 30.

These comps have an intellectually dishonest feel. You well know Degrom is a Piazza-esque exception, not the rule. To the other guys, across their professional careers, there has always been a significant difference between Cole and Bauer. Bauer has always been seen as having potential, but not the potential of Cole or Verlander. In either case, Verlander and Cole also appear to be cheating, in fact Bauer's own crusade is predicated on it.

No, he isn't in the same league as DeGrom and I would probably put him a notch below Cole, but considering he is almost 3 years younger than the former and some 6 months the later, I like this short term deal and it is worth the risk.

That's great. Again, I'm not telling you you shouldn't be excited, I'm simply saying, this one doesn't make my clock point to midnight, if you get my drift.

2019 was filtered with some bad starts in his transition in-season move from Cleveland to Cincy, but I think odds are it was an outlier for the new Trevor Bauer. A mechanic who simply doesn't walk anyone like he used to and really has harnessed his game.

I cant think of a starting pitcher I would put above him other than those two. Bieber probably, but that is evaluating him on one solid season- albeit a Cy Young short one. Darvish? No, even with his comeback I can't put him over Trevor (who he lost the Cy Young to). Scherzer is on the decline. Nola's numbers simply don't compare. Buehler and Giolito aren't there yet.
I mean it is laughable to suggest he isn't one of the best in the game right now.

How can you possibly suggest it's laughable that I'm not going to label Bauerone of the best in the game based on 1.3 seasons of (NON-CONSECUTIVE) impressive results, then suggest Bieber isn't as good because Bieber only has 1.3 seasons of (CONSECUTIVE) impressive work? BTW, Bieber is 25 and his whole scope of work to-date is more impressive than Bauer's.

Of course he is

We disagree. I'm open to hear some logical explanation, but just throwing out the names of other pitchers isn't getting it done for me personally.

And still, my opinions don't exist in a vacuum. I'm not talking just potential performance, or just AAV, or just his social media non-sense, or just his cheating as you guys seem to be making it out to be, I'm looking at the whole picture and saying this ain't for me.

and we just added him to a rotation that still has Kershaw (borderline Top 10), quickly approaching stud top 5 guy in Buehler (who has about 10 million in incentives to shoot for), one of the better young southpaws in the game in Urias and a trio of young right-handers with good to exceptional stuff on the way in May, Gonsolin and Gray. Oh, and a former Cy Young winner himself in Price coming back to boot

So let's look for some agreement here... Yes, we are stacked. In order for the Bauer deal to be worth it, he needs to pitch like an ace because it is entirely possible that he is outperformed in 2021 by at least three starters that were already on the roster. The Bauer of 2019 (his last full season), that guy might be our 5th starter this year.

Enough with the insanity...

Agreed

[GibbyIsMyHero]

Regarding Bauer, he seems to be saying the right things now. Hopefully we see a much improved, mature human being in LA.

[GibbyIsMyHero]

Dodgers trade for Sheldon Neuse from the A’s. One of their top prospects, loads of power potential and really solid defensively at 3rd. Can also play 2nd. He had a great season in AAA in 2019.

This looks like we’re hedging out bets on Turner and creating opportunity for competition, but it could also could be that we’re still ready to sign Turner and, potentially, hedging on the DH returning.

Could Neuse be the next Muncy?

[GibbyIsMyHero]

According to MLB.com’s prospect profile, it’s very possible this FO views Neuse more as a - less defensively versatile, more offensively capable - replacement for Kiké as the Super U guy.

https://www.mlb.com/prospects/athlet...n-neuse-641914

[bkt42]

As asinine as it was to believe the R.A. Dickey was the best pitcher in baseball at one time? As asinine as it was to believe that Jake Arrieta was going to overtake that mantle from Clayton Kershaw based on a half season of baseball?

What's more asinine, taking a pitcher for his full scope of work, or 1/3 of a season of dominant baseball?



Yeah, and that reason is entirely based on 1/3 of a season of baseball wherein he increased his spin rate to levels unforeseen; a result which he himself has consistently said is impossible to do without cheating and, in turn, he himself smugly continues to suggest that he is doing.



You're right, because he admittedly is being aided by a foreign substance.



These comps have an intellectually dishonest feel. You well know Degrom is a Piazza-esque exception, not the rule. To the other guys, across their professional careers, there has always been a significant difference between Cole and Bauer. Bauer has always been seen as having potential, but not the potential of Cole or Verlander. In either case, Verlander and Cole also appear to be cheating, in fact Bauer's own crusade is predicated on it.



That's great. Again, I'm not telling you you shouldn't be excited, I'm simply saying, this one doesn't make my clock point to midnight, if you get my drift.



How can you possibly suggest it's laughable that I'm not going to label Bauerone of the best in the game based on 1.3 seasons of (NON-CONSECUTIVE) impressive results, then suggest Bieber isn't as good because Bieber only has 1.3 seasons of (CONSECUTIVE) impressive work? BTW, Bieber is 25 and his whole scope of work to-date is more impressive than Bauer's.


We disagree. I'm open to hear some logical explanation, but just throwing out the names of other pitchers isn't getting it done for me personally.

And still, my opinions don't exist in a vacuum. I'm not talking just potential performance, or just AAV, or just his social media non-sense, or just his cheating as you guys seem to be making it out to be, I'm looking at the whole picture and saying this ain't for me.



So let's look for some agreement here... Yes, we are stacked. In order for the Bauer deal to be worth it, he needs to pitch like an ace because it is entirely possible that he is outperformed in 2021 by at least three starters that were already on the roster. The Bauer of 2019 (his last full season), that guy might be our 5th starter this year.




Agreed

I actually said I would probably put Bieber ahead of him. But those three (DeGrom, Cole) would be the only ones. Who would you put ahead of him right now?

And no, the ranking isn't only based on his 1/3 of a season, but it also had his 2018 into the evaluation as well; which was also dominant.

We can agree to disagree, but Bauer I think is going to be a Cy Young contender in both his seasons here...and adding that to Buehler's potential ceiling as well makes it extremely exciting.

I repeat there was no single player in free-agency that was going to raise the odds of a repeat more than this guy, even as we do wait for more balance from the right side of the plate...

[lamar2006]

surprised about the Kolarek trade. Other than Gonzalez and the Clevinger guy who we traded for who is unproven what other lefty do we have in the pen? Are Dodgers going to make a trade for another lefty?

[WhiteShadow42]

Regarding Bauer, he seems to be saying the right things now. Hopefully we see a much improved, mature human being in LA.

Ya I watched the question and answer part with Friedman. He does his homework and talks to people about a person's character. I trust in the process with the Dodgers FO regarding getting good character guys and also getting rid of poor character guys. I'm with you on Bauer on that he has shown some immaturity and in no shape or form will say he is a top 5 pitcher in such a small sample base. Now if he performs to 95% of what he did last year, then I will say he was worth the money and he is a top 5 pitcher.

LOL, if some of these posters here knew who your were.

[GibbyIsMyHero]

I actually said I would probably put Bieber ahead of him. But those three (DeGrom, Cole) would be the only ones. Who would you put ahead of him right now?

IMO, it depends on which version of Bauer we get. This guy’s effectiveness has always relied on his naturally high spin rates. At his normal spin rates, I think he’s shown to be something between a mid-rotation guy and a very solid number 2 on a deep playoff contender. I, personally, wouldn’t put that version of him on any “top 10” lists.

I’m not suggesting he’s the only one using a banned substance - that is clearly not the case. Scherzer, Cole, Verlander, Felix Hernandez, and many other high profile guys have been outed and, again, that’s the very basis of his own crusade. However, I do suspect that Bauer, whose successes even prior to 2020 were predicated on his naturally high spin rates, is likely getting a bigger boost than those guys because he’s so much better at spinning it naturally. I know that sounds strange, but spin rate is not everything. Some of these guys make up the difference with the velocity edge they have on him.

If MLB doesn’t crack down on the banned substances and he continues using them, then he’s very likely in my top 10, I just don’t know that I can give him top 5 based on 1.33 non-consecutive seasons, especially when the primary basis of his rankings is the latter 0.33.

To be clear, I only call it cheating because not everyone is doing it and it’s against the rules. I’d be totally fine with it if everyone was doing the same thing.

And no, the ranking isn't only based on his 1/3 of a season, but it also had his 2018 into the evaluation as well; which was also dominant.

Yes, but it conveniently forgets about his 2019. Look at it from my perspective; you’re telling me Bauer is a top 3 starter in baseball for the next two years, right? I say this is based on 1/3 of a season in 2020... you retort by suggesting he also had a solid 2018... well, isn’t it entirely possible that 2021 looks more like 2019 considering that there was a bad year between?

Again, to me, his success hinges on being able to keep that spin rate up. If MLB doesn’t crack down on this, he’ll be elite; not as good as 2020, but elite. If MLB does crack down, I think he drops a bit further down the list than even some others who are using a banned substance.

We can agree to disagree, but Bauer I think is going to be a Cy Young contender in both his seasons here...and adding that to Buehler's potential ceiling as well makes it extremely exciting.

He very well may be. But without that spin rate, he might be the 3rd or 4th starter on this team... which admittedly, still isn’t a bad claim.

I repeat there was no single player in free-agency that was going to raise the odds of a repeat more than this guy, even as we do wait for more balance from the right side of the plate...

I agree with that, but this isn’t what we’re debating. Unless I missed something, you and I were discussing whether he was one of the 3 best pitchers in baseball.

Whether he was the one free agent that could move the needle most for us is another story. Even if he pitches to be the 3rd best starter on the team, then yeah, he absolutely does.

But again, it must be reiterated that my criticism of the signing is not entirely based on projected performance - it was based on the whole picture. I’m hopeful it works out in all aspects

[GibbyIsMyHero]

surprised about the Kolarek trade. Other than Gonzalez and the Clevinger guy who we traded for who is unproven what other lefty do we have in the pen? Are Dodgers going to make a trade for another lefty?

It’ll be interesting to see what they do. Kolarek didn’t really have a prominent role, but it was certainly a useful one in a pinch. This might signify that Urias could be moving to the pen.

[GibbyIsMyHero]

Ya I watched the question and answer part with Friedman. He does his homework and talks to people about a person's character. I trust in the process with the Dodgers FO regarding getting good character guys and also getting rid of poor character guys. I'm with you on Bauer on that he has shown some immaturity and in no shape or form will say he is a top 5 pitcher in such a small sample base. Now if he performs to 95% of what he did last year, then I will say he was worth the money and he is a top 5 pitcher.

LOL, if some of these posters here knew who your were.

Whatchu talkin’ bout? I’m a puppy dog

Agreed, again, I’m hoping it proves to be a good deal.

[GibbyIsMyHero]

It’ll be interesting to see what they do. Kolarek didn’t really have a prominent role, but it was certainly a useful one in a pinch. This might signify that Urias could be moving to the pen.

Or maybe they’re moving Floro to fill the role! Lol

I always liked Floro, but Bauer’s addition to the rotation bumps a starter and makes Floro expendable. I hope Vesia is worth it.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/dodgerb...021/02/12/amp/