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  1. #13501
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadyOne View Post
    We keep saying ďhave to wait, be patientĒ

    And when thereís a perfect guy to go after, then what? Keep waiting, miss him, and then donít go after the next one?

    Eventually, you just gotta go get someone
    Do we have what it takes to get Sexton ? Never did. People spun themselves into a dizzy drunk state over nothing. If Sexton is that good and young it's not a question of us not wanting to trade for him it's other teams have more to offer. We have to continue to build and develop our own assets.
    Last edited by flimflamman; 07-19-2021 at 08:15 PM.

  2. #13502
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    I donít understand the issue. Not one of us have said not to pursue players like Ball or Sexton. All people are saying is they are unlikely to go after Sexton, then Ball, then Powell or Duncan Robinson. Whatís the issue? Begleyís reports arenít even that.

    Weíre all on board with a big move this offseason. Iím personally against emptying the clip. Trading for Sexton is not that. Even in Begleyís other reports itís more of they want to trade for Sexton and also maintain cap flexibility for next season, not that they donít want to do anything. Itís not an either or. As far as trades, the only thing that has been reported is that they donít want to trade RJ.

    It seems like most of us are in line but some are confusing what itís meant by maintaining cap space for next season. They have over $50 million to spend this offseason. They can theoretically spend around $20-25 million this offseason in long term contracts and be in the ball park for a max contract next offseason. Thatís still pretty significant.

    Also, I donít think maintaining max space means they need to save the exact amount. I look at it as wanting to still be able to get there easily if the money is needed.
    Last edited by smood999; 07-19-2021 at 08:23 PM.

  3. #13503
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadyOne View Post
    We keep saying ďhave to wait, be patientĒ

    And when thereís a perfect guy to go after, then what? Keep waiting, miss him, and then donít go after the next one?

    Eventually, you just gotta go get someone
    how's that worked out so far? Do you really need the list of everyone that was coming here, dating back to 2010?

    I know it's different? Heard that many years as well. I'll contend you regress you lose buying power, players are gravitating to where the easiest place to win, if Knicks don't make the playoffs or a one and done 7 or 8th seed or i'm guessing the play in will remain what if they make that and lose the first game and don't even make the playoffs, who do you really think is jumping up and down to come join us?

    the problem is many on here are holding out that we mimic what Rose, Taj, Noel, Burks, Bully did on one and done deals, is that really going to be the case this season?

    Lots of huge if's in these posts, if Obi makes huge strides and can play Center, if IQ jumps up to the next level, and if we sign guys to one and done deals by overpaying? If Randle has an all second team season, etc etc...

    How long ago it was that Davis was a sure thing to the Knicks? Knicks were on the top of his list, he was a sure thing? The examples are endless, and now we hold out for Beal and LeVine?

    Here's my take on Beal if he's leaving Wash, he will be traded before he hits FA, and it won't be cheap and to a team of his choice. He comes with a 36.4 cap hold, you trade for him he has a player's option, you wait he will not get less than 36.4m so where is this coming from that we can wait for a Beal? What will we even look like saving 40m in cap for a guy that probably won't even come>?

    I guess i'm just trying to figure this out and this waiting well seems like a ploy to me, Knicks FO is immensely closed lips, this just didn't slip out so Begley can make this amazing announcement which he does clarify as if it's even true. Guess some didn't hear that part.

  4. #13504
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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    he's as good a chance to be that guy as anyone we could get. it's not like he scored 20ppg on horrible efficiency on a bad team that was scoring 120 every night.

    he averaged 24ppg on great efficiency for a bad team that was dead last in the NBA in scoring, he scored almost 25% of their points.

    his career shooting line at 22 years old is 46/39/83 shooting. how many 22 year old scorers have done that over their first 3 seasons?

    im not worried about his offense, he can score, there are some concerns over his attitude and passing, but worst case you have a Mitchell/CJ scorer and you put another ballhandler next to him the way UTAH and POR do with those guys.

    Thibs has done well with PG's too.
    You should be very worried about his offense.

    It's easy to fall in love with those shooting numbers as many have done here.

    Until you do the math.

    Sexton takes only 19.8% of his shots from 3.
    Out of every 100 shots he takes 20 3s at 39%. He takes 80 2s at 50.9% that adds up 104.84 points per 100 shots.

    The league average team takes 39 3s per 100 shots at 36.6% and 61 2s at 53%, that adds up to 107.482

    So with his ELITE scoring and athleticism he can't even keep up with the league average.

    Then you can factor in that teams would target him on defense and would shoot better percentages when he is defending because he is piss poor defender, that difference can only go up.



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  5. #13505
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    Quote Originally Posted by smood999 View Post
    I donít understand the issue. Not one of us have said not to pursue players like Ball or Sexton. All people are saying is they are unlikely to go after Sexton, then Ball, then Powell or Duncan Robinson. Whatís the issue?

    Weíre all on board with a big move this offseason. Iím personally against emptying the clip. Trading for Sexton is not that. Even in Begleyís other reports itís more of they want to trade for Sexton and also maintain cap flexibility for next season, not that they donít want to do anything. Itís not an either or. As far as trades, the only thing that has been reported is that they donít want to trade RJ.

    It seems like most of us are in line but some are confusing what itís meant by maintaining cap space for next season. They have over $50 million to spend this offseason. They can theoretically spend around $20-25 million this offseason in long term contracts and be in the ball park for a max contract next offseason. Thatís still pretty significant.

    Also, I donít think maintaining max space means they need to save the exact amount. I look at it as wanting to still be able to get there easily if the money is needed.
    yes and this we will only spend 20-25 is the puzzling part? On who and and what cost and what will that player cost in 2022?

    So of course Sexton is the hot topic are you saying as the GM you won't give him this season his max rookie extension? Isn't that the entire reason Clev is even entertaining trading him or why wouldn't they wait and make him a RFA? Why? Do we really not understand the power players have in their destinations now?

    That would be like Knicks if we didn't trade KP or even Dallas saying we are giving you the rookie extension and he was hurt the entire year and got it, and Sexton just came off a very productive, efficient season. You think he don't want the extension and risk injury you know injuries do happen? Players want that max extension if they qualify and that which many are missing is why Clev is even discussing a trade.

    so what moves we making this year with this roster that saves us room for a max player in 2022 that even makes us make the playoffs? That is my contention and I don't want to have a set back that is that drastic.


    Smood no one has taken me through the step, the financials the examples? You say a move like Sexton then we still have max cap, take me through it because only way is if we are not doing much else and we regress with no bench because I don't see the one and done's like last year, those players really aren't available this season do to lack of really good talent in FA.

    other teams are going to improve and I see fans being content with going backwards? Maybe some don't see it, but spending only 20m and leaving the rest for 2022 what kind of team can you put together?

  6. #13506
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    Quote Originally Posted by east fb knicks View Post
    Now you guys don't wanna use picks smfh
    No itís about Maximizing value.
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  7. #13507
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    Quote Originally Posted by still a fan View Post
    yes and this we will only spend 20-25 is the puzzling part? On who and and what cost and what will that player cost in 2022?

    So of course Sexton is the hot topic are you saying as the GM you won't give him this season his max rookie extension? Isn't that the entire reason Clev is even entertaining trading him or why wouldn't they wait and make him a RFA? Why? Do we really not understand the power players have in their destinations now?

    That would be like Knicks if we didn't trade KP or even Dallas saying we are giving you the rookie extension and he was hurt the entire year and got it, and Sexton just came off a very productive, efficient season. You think he don't want the extension and risk injury you know injuries do happen? Players want that max extension if they qualify and that which many are missing is why Clev is even discussing a trade.

    so what moves we making this year with this roster that saves us room for a max player in 2022 that even makes us make the playoffs? That is my contention and I don't want to have a set back that is that drastic.


    Smood no one has taken me through the step, the financials the examples? You say a move like Sexton then we still have max cap, take me through it because only way is if we are not doing much else and we regress with no bench because I don't see the one and done's like last year, those players really aren't available this season do to lack of really good talent in FA.

    other teams are going to improve and I see fans being content with going backwards? Maybe some don't see it, but spending only 20m and leaving the rest for 2022 what kind of team can you put together?
    Sexton does not have the clout/power to demand an extension right away. Not every player is automatically given that.

    Heís in trade rumors because his team doesnít want to pay him long term, not because heís mad at not getting an extension right now.

    Youíre putting him on a pedestal that heís not on. Look at how polarizing he is around the entire league. Whether you agree with the narrative around him or not, it is what it is. There are some Cavs reporters putting out there that they feel heís a 6th man (which I donít agree with, just pointing out how heís viewed as anything but a slam dunk).

    KP didnít get the extension from Dallas until the offseason. Not sure how the comparison makes sense.

    If you follow the Sexton news, the reason why his price seems low is because teams arenít in a rush to extend him and itís being viewed as a one year trial rather than the team that trades for him 100% keeping him for the next 5 years.
    Last edited by smood999; 07-19-2021 at 08:51 PM.

  8. #13508
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    Quote Originally Posted by callmeDro View Post
    You should be very worried about his offense.

    It's easy to fall in love with those shooting numbers as many have done here.

    Until you do the math.

    Sexton takes only 19.8% of his shots from 3.
    Out of every 100 shots he takes 20 3s at 39%. He takes 80 2s at 50.9% that adds up 104.84 points per 100 shots.

    The league average team takes 39 3s per 100 shots at 36.6% and 61 2s at 53%, that adds up to 107.482

    So with his ELITE scoring and athleticism he can't even keep up with the league average.

    Then you can factor in that teams would target him on defense and would shoot better percentages when he is defending because he is piss poor defender, that difference can only go up.



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    ok first of all he's all of 22 and played on a bad team.

    Next he took 24% of his shots 264 out of 1105 shots, not 20%.

    the next thing is he shot extremely well from two shooting 53%.

    The nba average three point fg last year was just under 36% that means all he has to do is hit 50% of his two's to be league average but he shot 53%.

    He is actually refreshing because the least amount of shots came from 16ft to 3 point land which is the worst shot in the NBA today and he only took 7% from there.

    He was at the rim 302 times just the type of player Thibs wants. You can give me a 22 year old who shoots 37% from three and gets to the rim with ease any time he wants all day every day. He shot 62% at the rim making 187 shots, you know we missed that in a huge way last year, right?

    Let's add this stat, with less than 3 min in the quarter he shoots 28% of his shots from three making them at a 36% rate.

    Again he's all of 22 and he didn't have a Randle or RJ getting him wide open looks either

    Did I mention he's 22 years old?

  9. #13509
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    Quote Originally Posted by smood999 View Post
    Sexton does not have the clout/power to demand an extension right away. Not every player is automatically given that.

    Heís in trade rumors because his team doesnít want to pay him long term, not because heís mad at not getting an extension right now.

    Youíre putting him on a pedestal that heís not on.

    KP didnít get the extension from Dallas until the offseason. Not sure how the comparison makes sense.

    If you follow the Sexton news, the reason why his price seems low is because teams arenít in a rush to extend him and itís being viewed as a one year trial rather than the team that trades for him 100% keeping him for the next 5 years.
    not what I read? the reason the value is lower than it should be is some teams are worried about the cap and paying him max money, i've read that in many an article and just posted it why GS won't give up it's 7th pick because of the pay out.

    How many rookies that can get a max contract that just came off a 24.3 didn't get that extension and teams waited till his RFA?

    How about we compare him to Fox who plays for another losing team and yet Fox has a better team but team still always stinks and yet Fox got his rookie extension and the team didn't wait for him to RFA? Right now I think he compares to Fox better than anyone else based on age, production, team losing etc

    fox went from 21 to 25pts at the same point Sexton is at right now but already scored 24.3 so who knows his limits?

    And Fox shot 32% fform three on 5.5 shots per game and the year before at Sextons age shot 29% and still got the rookie max extension.

    I'm not overrating anyone, i kind of do my comparisons before i spit out things.

    Knicks can play that game and wait and see what offers he gets and match them, is that the best for the player/team relationship in your opinion?

  10. #13510
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    Quote Originally Posted by still a fan View Post
    okay what did he tell you that says by trading for say a Sexton is going have cap space for next year?

    I'm shocked if anyone thinks Sexton is going to be happy about not getting his rookie extension this season, yes it's this season, you know how many millions he would have to not take and that could well be see you knicks even though they would hold the bird rights it don't matter today, I can't name one player that is kept whe nthey want to go.

    And i'll go back again even if not Sexton will be a min of 19m and Randle a min of 29m and then RJ at 11m Mitch at 10-12m, IQ at 2.3m
    Are all these players next year taking one year deals I think not, imo, why would they. I'd be in total shock, I mean we have rumors of CP3 giving up 44m to take a multi year deal.

    If Sexton stayed at 6m on the cap and then 19m cap okay but you are asking almost the impossible of a player to not want the rookie extension.

    I think holding cap for next year is a formula for disaster. And if those he's talking about extends with their own team then what? Hey we can hold out for Doncic and Trae, why not, keep holding cap hasn't that been the formula? We got very lucky getting Rose and Taj being available and Noel performing well.

    Speaking of Noel he has interest from Philly and Mav's and more, i'm guessing no way he's a Knick now, right?

    Rose, Bully, Burks, Noel all UFA's all will command MLE type money which equates to a min of 2 years.

    I'm trying to figure out holding cap what this team will look like and it's not pretty, I don't see a bench what so ever, and the starting lineup is missing a SF.

    Sounds good Begley but how about taking it to the next level and explaining how by giving examples starting with a player like Sexton not getting his rookie extension.
    He is on the books for 6m+ next year but 2022 is when the rookie extension kicks in and he's eligible this season to get it but that only means it starts in 2022 which takes his cap to 30m

    Not giving him the rookie max extension takes him to RFA, then teams can make offers and Knicks can match but that may sit right with Sexton , kind of an interesting dilemma.

    But still say his cap is 19m who you signing this year on one year deals? that remains the question, and what FA is coming here if we maybe don't even make the playoffs?
    Haven't we been doing this for years? Time to stop kicking the can down the road.

    BTW Stilla,,,how old did you say Sexton is??
    Last edited by YankeeFanAlways; 07-19-2021 at 09:09 PM.

  11. #13511
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    Quote Originally Posted by still a fan View Post
    not what I read? the reason the value is lower than it should be is some teams are worried about the cap and paying him max money, i've read that in many an article and just posted it why GS won't give up it's 7th pick because of the pay out.

    How many rookies that can get a max contract that just came off a 24.3 didn't get that extension and teams waited till his RFA?

    How about we compare him to Fox who plays for another losing team and yet Fox has a better team but team still always stinks and yet Fox got his rookie extension and the team didn't wait for him to RFA? Right now I think he compares to Fox better than anyone else based on age, production, team losing etc

    fox went from 21 to 25pts at the same point Sexton is at right now but already scored 24.3 so who knows his limits?

    And Fox shot 32% fform three on 5.5 shots per game and the year before at Sextons age shot 29% and still got the rookie max extension.

    I'm not overrating anyone, i kind of do my comparisons before i spit out things.

    Knicks can play that game and wait and see what offers he gets and match them, is that the best for the player/team relationship in your opinion?
    There would be zero reason to extend Sexton now. Thatís the great thing about us getting him now, the ton of extra cap we would have by waiting

  12. #13512
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    Quote Originally Posted by still a fan View Post
    not what I read? the reason the value is lower than it should be is some teams are worried about the cap and paying him max money, i've read that in many an article and just posted it why GS won't give up it's 7th pick because of the pay out.

    How many rookies that can get a max contract that just came off a 24.3 didn't get that extension and teams waited till his RFA?

    How about we compare him to Fox who plays for another losing team and yet Fox has a better team but team still always stinks and yet Fox got his rookie extension and the team didn't wait for him to RFA? Right now I think he compares to Fox better than anyone else based on age, production, team losing etc

    fox went from 21 to 25pts at the same point Sexton is at right now but already scored 24.3 so who knows his limits?

    And Fox shot 32% fform three on 5.5 shots per game and the year before at Sextons age shot 29% and still got the rookie max extension.

    I'm not overrating anyone, i kind of do my comparisons before i spit out things.

    Knicks can play that game and wait and see what offers he gets and match them, is that the best for the player/team relationship in your opinion?
    The perception of Fox and Sexton are not the same. Perception matters. Teams arenít just looking at a spreadsheet with numbers. Why didnít someone like Monta Ellis ever make an All Star team? Thatís basically the concern with Sexton combined with an attitude.

    Foxís playmaking isnít questioned the way that Sextonís is. His attitude isnít questioned either. People legitimately wonder what else Sexton can do besides score. Thatís not how Fox is viewed.

    And right, teams donít want to pay him what heís looking for meaning heís unlikely to get extended until next offseason.
    Last edited by smood999; 07-19-2021 at 09:16 PM.

  13. #13513
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    IDK....

    we've been searching for a Pg for two decades and we make an assumption we get a 24.3 kid who is all of 22 years old and we say we want to test the waters with him? I wouldn't test the waters with him and lose probably two picks and Obi and Knox, that is not testing the waters that is all in.

    Now if Knicks FO wants to go to him and guarantee him he'll get max but to keep the team financially sound for more improvement keeping his cap saving at 10m then that's a different story, but to me your word in sports should be golden and if that now means 5 years at Max FA money not rookie extension monies.

    And if i'm that player i'm looking out for my family and want it now because who knows what could happen freak injury and ACL which pushes him back another season, not like it don't happen.

    Also interested from the landscape of players views how not giving him his rookie max ext would look and say about the Knicks FO, oh it's good as long as it favors the team?

    food for thought!

  14. #13514
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    Quote Originally Posted by still a fan View Post
    ok first of all he's all of 22 and played on a bad team.

    Next he took 24% of his shots 264 out of 1105 shots, not 20%.

    the next thing is he shot extremely well from two shooting 53%.

    The nba average three point fg last year was just under 36% that means all he has to do is hit 50% of his two's to be league average but he shot 53%.

    He is actually refreshing because the least amount of shots came from 16ft to 3 point land which is the worst shot in the NBA today and he only took 7% from there.

    He was at the rim 302 times just the type of player Thibs wants. You can give me a 22 year old who shoots 37% from three and gets to the rim with ease any time he wants all day every day. He shot 62% at the rim making 187 shots, you know we missed that in a huge way last year, right?

    Let's add this stat, with less than 3 min in the quarter he shoots 28% of his shots from three making them at a 36% rate.

    Again he's all of 22 and he didn't have a Randle or RJ getting him wide open looks either

    Did I mention he's 22 years old?
    His career stats are 20% from three, but you are right he took 23.9% from 3 last year.
    He has never shot 54% from 2 in his life as a pro according to bkref. Not sure where you got that from. His 2021 2Pt rate was 50.8%

    Yes he is 22, maybe do the same Calc for Lillard or someone at 22? I haven't tried it could be interesting.

    Not sure I would want one either one at this point. But Sexton for the rest of his rookie deal would be OK to try out as long as we are not giving up anything more than Obi, Knox and picks. Lillard is way too expensive.

    https://www.basketball-reference.com...sextoco01.html


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  15. #13515
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    Quote Originally Posted by still a fan View Post
    IDK....

    we've been searching for a Pg for two decades and we make an assumption we get a 24.3 kid who is all of 22 years old and we say we want to test the waters with him? I wouldn't test the waters with him and lose probably two picks and Obi and Knox, that is not testing the waters that is all in.

    Now if Knicks FO wants to go to him and guarantee him he'll get max but to keep the team financially sound for more improvement keeping his cap saving at 10m then that's a different story, but to me your word in sports should be golden and if that now means 5 years at Max FA money not rookie extension monies.

    And if i'm that player i'm looking out for my family and want it now because who knows what could happen freak injury and ACL which pushes him back another season, not like it don't happen.

    Also interested from the landscape of players views how not giving him his rookie max ext would look and say about the Knicks FO, oh it's good as long as it favors the team?

    food for thought!
    We are all in agreement as far as trading for him. We disagree that trading for him means having to extend him right away.

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