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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by pacofunk64 View Post
    As much as I want to upgrade the iOL, we were still a top 5 offense. For sure some changes still need to happen there but I agree give me Barmore.

    As an IA fan Daviyon Nixon surprised the hell out of me this year. I have not read too much to see where he is expected to go outside of Mel Kiper who has him like top 10. That might be a bit too much and a bit of an over reaction.
    We were a top 5 offense. With one of the weakest Olines in football. Theses stats right here..
    2014: 72.4 (23rd)
    2015: 67.9 (28th)
    2016: 64.7 (30th)
    2017: 71.9 (17th)
    2018: 63.6 (27th)
    2019: 63.0 (27th)
    2020: 55.5 (29th)
    ... Scream help. Imagine if we had the 15th best Oline? 10th? 5th? Best?... No other position group that we have even comes close to this level of deficiency. It needs to be addressed with top talent.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by nessythegreat View Post
    We were a top 5 offense. With one of the weakest Olines in football. Theses stats right here..
    2014: 72.4 (23rd)
    2015: 67.9 (28th)
    2016: 64.7 (30th)
    2017: 71.9 (17th)
    2018: 63.6 (27th)
    2019: 63.0 (27th)
    2020: 55.5 (29th)
    ... Scream help. Imagine if we had the 15th best Oline? 10th? 5th? Best?... No other position group that we have even comes close to this level of deficiency. It needs to be addressed with top talent.
    Our DL was actually worse. 30th in pass rush win rate and dead last in run stop win rate. If you take out Yannick's 5 games our pass rush win rate is probably dead last too. Yes we get Pierce and Hunter back but Pierce offers little as a pass rusher and what happens if the reports of Hunter demanding a new deal are true? If Hunter forces his way out, our DL will be by far our worst unit.

    PFF posted a study that the difference in starting caliber lineman drafted between rounds 1 through 4 is minimal. Meaning, you can find starting OL on day 2. Unless you're getting a Quenton Nelson, guards are not worth first round picks. Give me a DT or DE in round 1 and then let's trade up from our spot in the 3rd round back into the 2nd for an offensive lineman. Check off our two biggest needs in the first 2 rounds.
    2021 Vikings Draft:
    1: Christian Darrisaw OT Virginia Tech
    3: Kellen Mond QB Texas A&M
    3: Chazz Surratt LB North Carolina
    3: Wyatt Davis G Ohio State
    3: Patrick Jones III DE Pittsburgh
    4: Kene Nwangwu RB Iowa State
    4: Camryn Bynum S California
    4: Janarius Robinson DE Florida State
    5: Ihmir Smith-Marsette WR Iowa
    5: Zach Davidson TE Central Missouri St.
    6: Jaylen Twyman DT Pittsburgh

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by nessythegreat View Post
    We were a top 5 offense. With one of the weakest Olines in football. Theses stats right here..
    2014: 72.4 (23rd)
    2015: 67.9 (28th)
    2016: 64.7 (30th)
    2017: 71.9 (17th)
    2018: 63.6 (27th)
    2019: 63.0 (27th)
    2020: 55.5 (29th)
    ... Scream help. Imagine if we had the 15th best Oline? 10th? 5th? Best?... No other position group that we have even comes close to this level of deficiency. It needs to be addressed with top talent.
    Analytics will tell you, as much as I disagree lol, that iOL don't mean squat in terms of wins. IMO the biggest problem is with our scheme. We are looking for athletic guys that can move in space, which we've shown we are good at. But since they can move they lack the anchor for pass protection. Gotta find a balance there.

    Some of our losses in the past few years were a result of our OL just getting demolished. 2019 season, Bears, Packers gave us hell. Then the 49ers demolished us.

    I mean perfect example is Bradbury looks like he's going to be a bust, I still hold hope that he can be at least a top 12-15 center which would be fine. He was top 10 for maybe the first half of the season then dropped off a lot.
    Then you have the Packers taking Elgton Jenkins in the 2nd round of the same draft and he's flourished at guard (played G & C in college) and will be the next in line of great Packer OL.

  4. #124
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    Florida State S Hamsah Nasirildeen is a name to keep an eye on. I watched some film on him and he's pretty impressive. Dane Brugler has him rated as a late 2nd/early 3rd round pick.
    2021 Vikings Draft:
    1: Christian Darrisaw OT Virginia Tech
    3: Kellen Mond QB Texas A&M
    3: Chazz Surratt LB North Carolina
    3: Wyatt Davis G Ohio State
    3: Patrick Jones III DE Pittsburgh
    4: Kene Nwangwu RB Iowa State
    4: Camryn Bynum S California
    4: Janarius Robinson DE Florida State
    5: Ihmir Smith-Marsette WR Iowa
    5: Zach Davidson TE Central Missouri St.
    6: Jaylen Twyman DT Pittsburgh

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikingsfan0845 View Post
    Our DL was actually worse. 30th in pass rush win rate and dead last in run stop win rate. If you take out Yannick's 5 games our pass rush win rate is probably dead last too. Yes we get Pierce and Hunter back but Pierce offers little as a pass rusher and what happens if the reports of Hunter demanding a new deal are true? If Hunter forces his way out, our DL will be by far our worst unit.

    PFF posted a study that the difference in starting caliber lineman drafted between rounds 1 through 4 is minimal. Meaning, you can find starting OL on day 2. Unless you're getting a Quenton Nelson, guards are not worth first round picks. Give me a DT or DE in round 1 and then let's trade up from our spot in the 3rd round back into the 2nd for an offensive lineman. Check off our two biggest needs in the first 2 rounds.
    Thats why I loved your mock offseason. If we did something like that, I'd have no worries.
    But... If we don't do something like it, we need to attack our Oline problems. Having even an average offensive line will help our team the most. Hell, the one time we did, we went to the NFC Championship. IF we had an average Oline.. Kirk is helped, Cook is helped, Jefferson/Thielen/TE's are helped, our D is helped because of clock control.. Everything is improved... Whats the use of getting to the playoffs to have our Oline eviscerated when we play above average Dlines. Because thats been our problem forever now.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by pacofunk64 View Post
    Analytics will tell you, as much as I disagree lol, that iOL don't mean squat in terms of wins. IMO the biggest problem is with our scheme. We are looking for athletic guys that can move in space, which we've shown we are good at. But since they can move they lack the anchor for pass protection. Gotta find a balance there.

    Some of our losses in the past few years were a result of our OL just getting demolished. 2019 season, Bears, Packers gave us hell. Then the 49ers demolished us.

    I mean perfect example is Bradbury looks like he's going to be a bust, I still hold hope that he can be at least a top 12-15 center which would be fine. He was top 10 for maybe the first half of the season then dropped off a lot.
    Then you have the Packers taking Elgton Jenkins in the 2nd round of the same draft and he's flourished at guard (played G & C in college) and will be the next in line of great Packer OL.
    Ya I think they're full of ****. Because every team would take a dominant pass rushing DT over a dominant pass rushing DE. And what do you need to stop those DTs? A strong interior Oline. Look at Brady, Brees, Rodgers through the years. They all had strong Olines.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikingsfan0845 View Post
    Florida State S Hamsah Nasirildeen is a name to keep an eye on. I watched some film on him and he's pretty impressive. Dane Brugler has him rated as a late 2nd/early 3rd round pick.
    I don't know much about his play style but his size reminds me of Kearse. In some instances when doing mocks I end up taking 2 Safety's. Like Paris Ford one pick and then a few later I take this guy.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by nessythegreat View Post
    Thats why I loved your mock offseason. If we did something like that, I'd have no worries.
    But... If we don't do something like it, we need to attack our Oline problems. Having even an average offensive line will help our team the most. Hell, the one time we did, we went to the NFC Championship. IF we had an average Oline.. Kirk is helped, Cook is helped, Jefferson/Thielen/TE's are helped, our D is helped because of clock control.. Everything is improved... Whats the use of getting to the playoffs to have our Oline eviscerated when we play above average Dlines. Because thats been our problem forever now.
    2017 we went to the NFC title game because we had the #1 defense in the NFL. We were constantly able to play from ahead which played into the strength of our OL, which was run blocking. The OL still struggled in pass protection.

    Quote Originally Posted by nessythegreat View Post
    Ya I think they're full of ****. Because every team would take a dominant pass rushing DT over a dominant pass rushing DE. And what do you need to stop those DTs? A strong interior Oline. Look at Brady, Brees, Rodgers through the years. They all had strong Olines.
    But you need to look at how they acquired these guys. Using current interior OL's:

    Patriots:
    Thuney: 3rd rounder
    Andrews: undrafted FA
    Mason: 4th rounder

    Packers:
    Jenkins: 2nd round
    Linsley: 5th round
    Taylor: undrafted

    Buccaneers:
    Marpet: 2nd round
    Jensen: FA/drafted 6th round by Ravens
    Cappa: 3rd rounder

    Chiefs:
    Duvernay-Tardif: 6th rounder
    Reiter: FA/7th round pick by Browns
    Allegretti: 7th rounder

    You don't need to spend a bunch of high picks on your OL like the Saints do to have a good OL. You can criticize the Vikings for their inability to develop interior OL but they've had the right idea of waiting until the middle rounds to look for OL help.
    2021 Vikings Draft:
    1: Christian Darrisaw OT Virginia Tech
    3: Kellen Mond QB Texas A&M
    3: Chazz Surratt LB North Carolina
    3: Wyatt Davis G Ohio State
    3: Patrick Jones III DE Pittsburgh
    4: Kene Nwangwu RB Iowa State
    4: Camryn Bynum S California
    4: Janarius Robinson DE Florida State
    5: Ihmir Smith-Marsette WR Iowa
    5: Zach Davidson TE Central Missouri St.
    6: Jaylen Twyman DT Pittsburgh

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikingsfan0845 View Post
    2017 we went to the NFC title game because we had the #1 defense in the NFL. We were constantly able to play from ahead which played into the strength of our OL, which was run blocking. The OL still struggled in pass protection.



    But you need to look at how they acquired these guys. Using current interior OL's:

    Patriots:
    Thuney: 3rd rounder
    Andrews: undrafted FA
    Mason: 4th rounder

    Packers:
    Jenkins: 2nd round
    Linsley: 5th round
    Taylor: undrafted

    Buccaneers:
    Marpet: 2nd round
    Jensen: FA/drafted 6th round by Ravens
    Cappa: 3rd rounder

    Chiefs:
    Duvernay-Tardif: 6th rounder
    Reiter: FA/7th round pick by Browns
    Allegretti: 7th rounder

    You don't need to spend a bunch of high picks on your OL like the Saints do to have a good OL. You can criticize the Vikings for their inability to develop interior OL but they've had the right idea of waiting until the middle rounds to look for OL help.
    Oh ya I know, I was reaching when I said that. But I was trying to make the point of what having an average Oline can do for us.
    I agree that you certainly can find good lineman in the middle rounds, but only if you can develop them. The Vikes have proven they can't. TJ Clemmings, David Yankey, Pat Elflein, Willie Beavers, maybe Dru Samia.. The only one who has been above average is O'neill. Jury is still out for Bradbury and Cleveland but its not looking great for the former. So if we cant develop them, we need to get top tier guys who don't need as much developing, like first round talents.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by nessythegreat View Post
    Oh ya I know, I was reaching when I said that. But I was trying to make the point of what having an average Oline can do for us.
    I agree that you certainly can find good lineman in the middle rounds, but only if you can develop them. The Vikes have proven they can't. TJ Clemmings, David Yankey, Pat Elflein, Willie Beavers, maybe Dru Samia.. The only one who has been above average is O'neill. Jury is still out for Bradbury and Cleveland but its not looking great for the former. So if we cant develop them, we need to get top tier guys who don't need as much developing, like first round talents.
    No offense but you just contradicted yourself there lol Bradbury was a consensus first round pick and widely considered the top interior lineman in 2018. So he should have been a guy who didn't need as much development. Using that draft as an example, there were other interior OL who went later in the draft who have been better than Bradbury so far. Elgton Jenkins, Erik McCoy, and Dalton Risner (2nd rounders each), Nate Davis (3rd), and Nick Allegretti (7th).
    2021 Vikings Draft:
    1: Christian Darrisaw OT Virginia Tech
    3: Kellen Mond QB Texas A&M
    3: Chazz Surratt LB North Carolina
    3: Wyatt Davis G Ohio State
    3: Patrick Jones III DE Pittsburgh
    4: Kene Nwangwu RB Iowa State
    4: Camryn Bynum S California
    4: Janarius Robinson DE Florida State
    5: Ihmir Smith-Marsette WR Iowa
    5: Zach Davidson TE Central Missouri St.
    6: Jaylen Twyman DT Pittsburgh

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikingsfan0845 View Post
    No offense but you just contradicted yourself there lol Bradbury was a consensus first round pick and widely considered the top interior lineman in 2018. So he should have been a guy who didn't need as much development. Using that draft as an example, there were other interior OL who went later in the draft who have been better than Bradbury so far. Elgton Jenkins, Erik McCoy, and Dalton Risner (2nd rounders each), Nate Davis (3rd), and Nick Allegretti (7th).
    It's just weird, so it makes me think it's either scheme or our inability to develop. Could be a combo of both, who knows. I do think Bradbury will continue to get better. He has shown flashes and stretches of being good so that gives me hope.

    Way too early on Cleveland and he played a position new to him and out of need. I thought he did well given the circumstances.

    Personally I still think Cleveland is more of a Tackle, does not have the strength to play guard.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikingsfan0845 View Post
    No offense but you just contradicted yourself there lol Bradbury was a consensus first round pick and widely considered the top interior lineman in 2018. So he should have been a guy who didn't need as much development. Using that draft as an example, there were other interior OL who went later in the draft who have been better than Bradbury so far. Elgton Jenkins, Erik McCoy, and Dalton Risner (2nd rounders each), Nate Davis (3rd), and Nick Allegretti (7th).
    That's why I said the jury is still out on Bradbury. I didn't make it definitive that he was a bust, but he is heading in the wrong direction. Doesn't take away from my point that the Vikes can't develop mid round or later talent on the Oline. So we need to get the cream at the top. And hey, sometimes it may not work out, but its better to spend time getting top talent at your weakest position besides hoping to develop them. Which again, they have shown they cannot.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by pacofunk64 View Post
    It's just weird, so it makes me think it's either scheme or our inability to develop. Could be a combo of both, who knows. I do think Bradbury will continue to get better. He has shown flashes and stretches of being good so that gives me hope.

    Way too early on Cleveland and he played a position new to him and out of need. I thought he did well given the circumstances.

    Personally I still think Cleveland is more of a Tackle, does not have the strength to play guard.
    I think he will. It would help tremendously if he had a good guard next to him at either side. That'll always help a center out. Which brings me to your second point about Cleveland. In that I also believe he is more of a tackle than a guard. But say we draft a guy like Sewell, Slater or Vera-Tucker. Do they keep him at guard? or move him to tackle? If its Sewell they would keep him at G, but if its the other two they may move him back to T.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by nessythegreat View Post
    I think he will. It would help tremendously if he had a good guard next to him at either side. That'll always help a center out. Which brings me to your second point about Cleveland. In that I also believe he is more of a tackle than a guard. But say we draft a guy like Sewell, Slater or Vera-Tucker. Do they keep him at guard? or move him to tackle? If its Sewell they would keep him at G, but if its the other two they may move him back to T.
    Yep exactly. There are some tackle prospects that would make it very hard to pass on if they were to be available. Slater I've heard could play essentially anywhere but I'd think we would plug him in at guard.

    I was reading up on Clevelands draft profile from last year. Their comp was Brian O'Neill lol, which is pretty darn accurate. They indicate that he needs to add a lot of strength which showed.

    If I had to put money on it right now I think we would go DL...Barmore being the first option. My mind will likely change next week lol. I want to see some scout takes on Daviyon Nixon. My one concern with Barmore is his lack of a constant motor, and his unwillingness to run down a runner down the line of scrimmage. That could change under Zim but still.

  15. #135
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    Think if Minnesota has a QB like for example Lance a guy that runs a lot or gets outside the pocket Bradbury would be really good. Just keep him moving but he'll never be a guy that can just stand in there and hold up with a drop back only QB.

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