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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRSpock View Post
    A little bit yeah lol. I can't stand the misinformation I see from the far left. It's so blanket stupid.

    Even being pro M4A is such a bland term. If you're talking about Yang's policy I'm down. But Bernie's is an economic disaster. Combined with his push of a Federal Min Wage of $15/hr leads me to believe he has 0 clue to what he's talking about. Or a "wealth tax".

    But again. Push for whatever candidate you want. And I still like Bernie even though his supporters frustrate me. I just find the guy to be honest, which is important. And I don't think he's so thick headed that he wouldn't adjust his vision for the betterment of the country.

    But there are so many similarities right now to the far left and the Trumps. Just a much lighter version. But there a lot of just straight propaganda out there. No substance whatsoever.
    I donít know how we fix anything on this front without making a drastic swing to the left for Medicare for all and then tweak from there.

    Itís insane that we still havenít figured out public healthcare and now we even have a pandemic with people dying rather than racking up medical bills and bankrupting people who do get help.

    Our system is broken. Everything from healthcare to the lifestyle decisions that impact it is all based around profiteering instead of providing a necessary service to all citizens.

    ďMedicare for allĒ seems to be a triggering term for you. I donít care what we do but healthcare needs to be a public service for all and these marginal changes do nothing.

    Until we have a majority of politicians answering to citizens rather than pharma lobbyists and their inevitable post political office jobs at lobbying groups or healthcare companies, itís a useless debate to even have. The system is broken.


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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRSpock View Post
    M4a can work. Bernies doesnt. Politically or economically. The cost is higher.. When we already near 20% gdp in medical. And it will NEVER sell to the right. Having only supplemental insurance and no option will die.

    And we can go into economic policies if you want.

    But can I remind people that Obama wanted a MUCH more progressive bill in single payer system. But at this point the GOP was abusing the living hell out of the filibuster. And couldnt get enough support in the senate to avoid it (you need 60 votes).

    And thats the other thing... A new reform will NEVER pass. No way. Even if the dems get the last 2 seats. I mean almost every president has tried to get a reform passed since fdr. And theyd always failed. And in this political climate? No way.

    In 100 years people will realize that Obama wasnt the disappointing pseudo conservative hes painted as. Gay marriage. Osama. Iran? I mean he went against the israeli lobby and the oil lobby and won. He got 40 million people healthcare while the gop plan was gonna add 2 million. He wasnt without mistakes(libya). Dodd frank. Dont ask dont tell. Are these not progressive?

    Greatest president since FDR. EASILY.
    You canít separate Bernieís Medicare for all plan from the rest of his policy ideas. The money will be there. Ask any GOPer how hard it is to find money to support trillions in tax cuts when they want it. Itís not. So public healthcare is doable when you factor in appropriate tax rates for corporations and wealthy, cutting excessive spending on military, etc.

    The point you make that matters is that it would never pass. Because again, the system is broken and feeds upon its own lack of morals and greed.


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  3. #18
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    Universal healthcare sucks. It sucks soooooooooo bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by WES445 View Post
    During the first two years of his administration, I do believe the Dem. had control of both the house and senate. If they truly wanted it, they could have passed medicare for all but then the donors (health insurance industry) stepped in and slow that process down.

    You comparing Obama to FDR? You don't know history, son, and why the donor class hated FDR. A group of wealthy businessmen plotted to overthrow FDR. Obama is wind sailing with billionaires after his presidency and enjoy support from the donor class.

    Gay marriage something that had majority support from the base. Easy dive at the right time.
    Killing Osama? I don't think that was driving leftist policy, try neo-liberal
    The progressive M4A doesn't include private health insurance as middlemen, they are adamant about that.


    You go on and on about progressive but you truly don't know what the progressive is all about, especially thinking the future will see Obama as a progressive like FDR.

    I like the Republican president Eisenhower more than Obama
    I honestly can't tell if you're trolling at this point, or just completely not understanding what I'm saying. But sure. Stick to conspiracy theory. I swear the new god of the gaps is conspiracy for the far left and the Trumpers. To avoid the painful realities of politics you just point fingers. No. It was not insurance companies. Sorry to burst your bubble. But it wasn't. We know what happened. It's not a secret.

    Yes he had control of the house and the senate. But if you don't remember.... McConnel and the Republicans were filibustering every single bill that they could that went through the senate. Obama wanted to pass single payer, but couldn't get the require 60 votes. So he had to go with the less progressive bill. He got exactly 60 votes. And it took a long time senator switching parties in order to do so. Multiple Republican Senators that had previously shown support for the bill did not support it. Moderate Dems urged a less ambitious bill because they knew it would lead to losing many seats. Pelosi told the to go **** themselves.

    You can tell this is true because in order to explain the bill, Obama had Bill Clinton explain it. Because it was actually very similar to a bill he had tried to pass while he was president. Obama was pretty clueless to the ACA... because it wasn't his bill. But it still included safety nets for people with preexisting conditions. And would provide healthcare for millions of Americans. It was better than what we had. An emergency election for Ed Kennedy would soon remove the majority, and a massive red wave incoming in the upcoming elections eventually paralyzed a lot of progressive legislature.

    No I didn't compare him to FDR. I said he was the best president since FDR. This is where it feels like you are purposely being a pain in the ***. And this is why I get so frustrated with how ridiculous the far left is. Proof by you bringing up his endorsement of Hillary, which he later admitted regret. Hence why he didn't say anything during the 2020 election, and made a point to not endorse anyone, and let the cards fall where they may.

    But it's also hilarious to me that you talk about "real progressives and FDR" but then go on to **** on Obama's foreign policy. If you think Bernie is closer to FDR in foreign policy, you are naÔve as hell.

    Alas more conspiracy. Obama is just a billionaire playboy now. Every decision he made was for corporate donors... Blah blah blah blah blah. Forget the fact that he went against Israel. He went against Exxon. Forget the fact that he put in regulations, that was massively opposed by huge corporations.

    If this is the type of rhetoric the far left is going to use... WE are all doomed. Eisenhauer over Obama? Wow. Just wow man lol. The moderate of moderates. LOL. If Eisenhauer were president today the far Left would ****in hate him. The guy who actually outlawed the Communist Party from the USA. Jesus Christ.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGGGG-Men View Post
    I donít know how we fix anything on this front without making a drastic swing to the left for Medicare for all and then tweak from there.

    Itís insane that we still havenít figured out public healthcare and now we even have a pandemic with people dying rather than racking up medical bills and bankrupting people who do get help.

    Our system is broken. Everything from healthcare to the lifestyle decisions that impact it is all based around profiteering instead of providing a necessary service to all citizens.

    ďMedicare for allĒ seems to be a triggering term for you. I donít care what we do but healthcare needs to be a public service for all and these marginal changes do nothing.

    Until we have a majority of politicians answering to citizens rather than pharma lobbyists and their inevitable post political office jobs at lobbying groups or healthcare companies, itís a useless debate to even have. The system is broken.


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    It's honestly not a triggering term. The triggering comes from the misinformation and conspiracy. "The corrupt this or that". When the information is literally right in front of you. I don't want this ridiculous notion that dems are the same as the GOP. It's such a baseless ignorant argument that I hear from the far left. There almost isn't a single place where Dems and Republicans are in the same camp on policy.

    And when I point out that we already tried to send out a super progressive healthcare plan and it failed? "Nah bro the insurance companies... the lobbyist.... Biden has dementia."

    It's just becoming an explanation for any time people don't get their way and it's ****ing frustrating as hell. The Bernie Bros are very close to the Trumper in regards to this. They avoid the truth.

    Bernie's economic structures and plans don't make sense. I'll hear Bernie supporters talk about Yang... Well Yang ***** on the Soc Dems all the time, and their policies in regards to the economy.

    Our country just seems to be getting dumber by the minute, and it makes me realize.... We're ****ed.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRSpock View Post
    I honestly can't tell if you're trolling at this point, or just completely not understanding what I'm saying. But sure. Stick to conspiracy theory. I swear the new god of the gaps is conspiracy for the far left and the Trumpers. To avoid the painful realities of politics you just point fingers. No. It was not insurance companies. Sorry to burst your bubble. But it wasn't. We know what happened. It's not a secret.
    Is Obama pushing Medicare for all now? Is any moderate dem pushing now? If they were so for then why aren't they now?

    Yes he had control of the house and the senate. But if you don't remember.... McConnel and the Republicans were filibustering every single bill that they could that went through the senate. Obama wanted to pass single payer, but couldn't get the require 60 votes. So he had to go with the less progressive bill. He got exactly 60 votes. And it took a long time senator switching parties in order to do so. Multiple Republican Senators that had previously shown support for the bill did not support it. Moderate Dems urged a less ambitious bill because they knew it would lead to losing many seats. Pelosi told the to go **** themselves.
    Here I will yield the floor to you. Yes, the filibuster was the problem. So they switch from a progressive stance to a republican stance on it by adopting Mitt ROmey plan. So why did you said this was a progressive move?

    You can tell this is true because in order to explain the bill, Obama had Bill Clinton explain it. Because it was actually very similar to a bill he had tried to pass while he was president. Obama was pretty clueless to the ACA... because it wasn't his bill. But it still included safety nets for people with preexisting conditions. And would provide healthcare for millions of Americans. It was better than what we had. An emergency election for Ed Kennedy would soon remove the majority, and a massive red wave incoming in the upcoming elections eventually paralyzed a lot of progressive legislature.

    No I didn't compare him to FDR. I said he was the best president since FDR. This is where it feels like you are purposely being a pain in the ***. And this is why I get so frustrated with how ridiculous the far left is. Proof by you bringing up his endorsement of Hillary, which he later admitted regret. Hence why he didn't say anything during the 2020 election, and made a point to not endorse anyone, and let the cards fall where they may.
    Find you just as irksome and frustrating, so quit whining. Hell, I even yield to one of our points and said I was wrong.

    But it's also hilarious to me that you talk about "real progressives and FDR" but then go on to **** on Obama's foreign policy. If you think Bernie is closer to FDR in foreign policy, you are naÔve as hell.
    This is what I mean by irksome, You brought up Obama foreign policies as if they were something that would make a progressive smile. Man, quit the hysteria, you can't even remember what you posted. And don't assume what I am thinking with your "IF you thinking" that is an internal dialogue on your part.
    Alas more conspiracy. Obama is just a billionaire playboy now. Every decision he made was for corporate donors... Blah blah blah blah blah. Forget the fact that he went against Israel. He went against Exxon. Forget the fact that he put in regulations, that was massively opposed by huge corporations.
    If this is the type of rhetoric the far left is going to use... WE are all doomed. Eisenhauer over Obama? Wow. Just wow man lol. The moderate of moderates. LOL. If Eisenhauer were president today the far Left would ****in hate him. The guy who actually outlawed the Communist Party from the USA. Jesus Christ.[/QUOTE]

    HAAHAAHA, Don't even ask why I like Eisenhauer more than Obama but just go off the cliff. Who gives a damn about communist? Are you assuming because I am for socialist programs, that I love communism? There were lynching during the FDR administration as well as Jim Crow, but I don't place the blame at his door. The mechanics for McCarthyism started with the formation of the UN-American Activities Committee which was formed in 1938, while Ike was still in the Arm Forces. He inherited that crap that was entrenched in American policies before he became President.

    And the military-industry would hate him more and he wouldn't increase our involvement in the middle east like Obama.

    Where did I say Obama was a billionaire playboy? Show me that post or stfu with the hysteria.
    Last edited by WES445; 11-23-2020 at 08:57 PM.
    WE STILL KNOW WHERE THE PITCHFORKS ARE:Beau of the Fifth Column, you tube.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRSpock View Post
    It's honestly not a triggering term. The triggering comes from the misinformation and conspiracy. "The corrupt this or that". When the information is literally right in front of you. I don't want this ridiculous notion that dems are the same as the GOP. It's such a baseless ignorant argument that I hear from the far left. There almost isn't a single place where Dems and Republicans are in the same camp on policy.

    And when I point out that we already tried to send out a super progressive healthcare plan and it failed? "Nah bro the insurance companies... the lobbyist.... Biden has dementia."

    It's just becoming an explanation for any time people don't get their way and it's ****ing frustrating as hell. The Bernie Bros are very close to the Trumper in regards to this. They avoid the truth.

    Bernie's economic structures and plans don't make sense. I'll hear Bernie supporters talk about Yang... Well Yang ***** on the Soc Dems all the time, and their policies in regards to the economy.

    Our country just seems to be getting dumber by the minute, and it makes me realize.... We're ****ed.
    Ok.


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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    Universal healthcare sucks. It sucks soooooooooo bad.
    Forgot the /s , people are gonna believe you lol

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  9. #24
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    NVm I will just settle with OK.
    WE STILL KNOW WHERE THE PITCHFORKS ARE:Beau of the Fifth Column, you tube.

  10. #25
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    Is there a concise description of M4A somewhere?
    I ask because
    A) I am on medicare and understand how it works
    B) its not "free" other than hospitalization (part "A")
    C) there are add ons you buy.

    My premium next year will be $546 Medicare plus $100 Medicare advantage plus $49 dental so basically $700 a month our of pocket for health insurance which is less than what I was paying for group health through my company (my company paid the premium but it wasn't deductible to the company) right before I aged into Medicare and pay out of pocket while working.

    I have medicare A, B, C and D.

    https://www.healthline.com/health/me...-medicare-free

    https://www.cms.gov/newsroom/fact-sh...nd-deductibles

    So if Medicare for all is free does that mean I will save $700 a month?

    I budget $4,900 ( out of pocket and deductibles) +$8,400 (premiums) a year for health insurance and deductibles.
    Some prescriptions aren't covered at all, I have an employee on Medicare and they prescribed a $5,000 a month drug for him. Not covered. He has to send financial data and forms to see if he can get a 95% discount form the manufacturer

    I expect to pay $280,000 over the rest of my life for insurance and out of pocket and not covered items, average is about $190,000 but I am adjusted for California costs.

    Other than some prescriptions Medicare with Medicare Advantage is great insurance.
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by SfgiantsJD3 View Post
    Is there a concise description of M4A somewhere?
    I ask because
    A) I am on medicare and understand how it works
    B) its not "free" other than hospitalization (part "A")
    C) there are add ons you buy.

    My premium next year will be $546 Medicare plus $100 Medicare advantage plus $49 dental so basically $700 a month our of pocket for health insurance which is less than what I was paying for group health through my company (my company paid the premium but it wasn't deductible to the company) right before I aged into Medicare and pay out of pocket while working.

    I have medicare A, B, C and D.

    https://www.healthline.com/health/me...-medicare-free

    https://www.cms.gov/newsroom/fact-sh...nd-deductibles

    So if Medicare for all is free does that mean I will save $700 a month?

    I budget $4,900 ( out of pocket and deductibles) +$8,400 (premiums) a year for health insurance and deductibles.
    Some prescriptions aren't covered at all, I have an employee on Medicare and they prescribed a $5,000 a month drug for him. Not covered. He has to send financial data and forms to see if he can get a 95% discount form the manufacturer

    I expect to pay $280,000 over the rest of my life for insurance and out of pocket and not covered items, average is about $190,000 but I am adjusted for California costs.

    Other than some prescriptions Medicare with Medicare Advantage is great insurance.
    Honestly Bernies system isn't very well laid out. And he just doesn't account for the lost funds in a lot of his policies.

    People (like you just showed) when they hear M4A they immediately think "oh so just expanding Medicare." But in reality there are massive changes to the program. And then it covers everyone. So single payer is the more accurate term, but calling it M4A is TECHNICALLY true. A lot of politicians started doing this because single payer doesn't poll as well.

    The huge gaping hole in sanders plan is he doesn't seem to understand that insurance companies are greedy yes, but they also create jobs, and provide vital money for hospital to pay their workers. And even before covid we were desperately in need of more Nurses, and Doctors. He seems to not to account for this in his bill. Which comes off as a bit dishonest.

    He always points to a Yale study... But it was done by one of his advisors (unpaid I think though) and there seems to be some generous assumptions.

    So it feels like 1 of 2 things will happen.

    1. Long as **** waits for medical treatment.
    2. Or a huge increase in the amount of GDP it will take to provide it. When we already spend 1/5th of our countries revenue on healthcare (or we will be soon at least).
    Last edited by MRSpock; 11-23-2020 at 10:36 PM.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by WES445 View Post
    Is Obama pushing Medicare for all now? Is any moderate dem pushing now? If they were so for then why aren't they now?Here I will yield the floor to you. Yes, the filibuster was the problem. So they switch from a progressive stance to a republican stance on it by adopting Mitt ROmey plan. So why did you said this was a progressive move? Find you just as irksome and frustrating, so quit whining. Hell, I even yield to one of our points and said I was wrong. This is what I mean by irksome, You brought up Obama foreign policies as if they were something that would make a progressive smile. Man, quit the hysteria, you can't even remember what you posted. And don't assume what I am thinking with your "IF you thinking" that is an internal dialogue on your part.

    If this is the type of rhetoric the far left is going to use... WE are all doomed. Eisenhauer over Obama? Wow. Just wow man lol. The moderate of moderates. LOL. If Eisenhauer were president today the far Left would ****in hate him. The guy who actually outlawed the Communist Party from the USA. Jesus Christ.
    HAAHAAHA, Don't even ask why I like Eisenhauer more than Obama but just go off the cliff. Who gives a damn about communist? Are you assuming because I am for socialist programs, that I love communism? There were lynching during the FDR administration as well as Jim Crow, but I don't place the blame at his door. The mechanics for McCarthyism started with the formation of the UN-American Activities Committee which was formed in 1938, while Ike was still in the Arm Forces. He inherited that crap that was entrenched in American policies before he became President.

    And the military-industry would hate him more and he wouldn't increase our involvement in the middle east like Obama.

    Where did I say Obama was a billionaire playboy? Show me that post or stfu with the hysteria.[/QUOTE]

    1. Obama isn't pushing anything. But it's a pointless venture ATM. We cannot pass a healthcare bill without at least 60 votes probably. As long as the GOP continues to block everything.

    2. So they should of done what? They had 3 options. Try to push a single payer plan which ultimately they knew would fail. Do nothing. Or settle for 30 million more on healthcare and protecting people with preexisting conditions. What would you do in this situation?

    3. It's just irritating that you seem to think you have the claim to the term "progressive". Like everything that comes out of a SocDems mouth is progressive. You sound like a teenager talking about mumble rap. "You just don't get it MAAAANNNNN.

    4. ****in hilarious. He actually did implement an overthrow of Iran's government. Obama signed used diplomacy. Imagine that. :P

    I thought you said something along the lines of Obama getting corporate money. Did you edit your post? I'm on another forum right now. Could of confused you.

    But just answer me the one question please. What should Obama should of done with the healthcare bill.

  13. #28
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    Look if I come off a bit manic, and irritated my bad, but the hand waving of facts that are instead replaced by conspiracy is killin me when I talk to people about this stuff. It puts a block in the conversation.

    My bad if I'm taking it out on you, but ****. Every time it's "the Jews", "the Corporation", "the media" online. I get called a George Sorous spy weekly now.. Not even kidding. I just get tired of it. And pretty soon people get stuck into their position and they create this fabricated truth, and they never move away from it.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRSpock View Post
    Look if I come off a bit manic, and irritated my bad, but the hand waving of facts that are instead replaced by conspiracy is killin me when I talk to people about this stuff. It puts a block in the conversation.

    My bad if I'm taking it out on you, but ****. Every time it's "the Jews", "the Corporation", "the media" online. I get called a George Sorous spy weekly now.. Not even kidding. I just get tired of it. And pretty soon people get stuck into their position and they create this fabricated truth, and they never move away from it.
    Who are you ďallegedlyĒ spying on?


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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    Who are you ďallegedlyĒ spying on?


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    Lol. My bad not a spy. A shill.

    Trumpers legitimately think Soros is paying people to try to change their opinion online with misinformation... Or I guess. It always circles to the Jews somehow lol.

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