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  1. #76
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    Dec 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    Modern humans don't like that kind of math. We believe any loss in the past is a tragedy, so any loss in similar fashion should have us sacrifice everything to keep it from happening again.

    One of my favorite examples was that over 10 years something like 15 children died after getting stuck at the bottom of a pool when they sat on the drain while the pump was on. Congress passed a law that meant the drains had to be made for that to not be possible. That alone was a relatively small but not insignificant expense so it made sense. The issue came when they went on to mandate that within the year every pool that had public access had to be retrofitted to meet the new standards, and the end result was that thousands of public pools closed down permanently because of less than one death per year.

    Humans are bad at these kinds of decisions.
    What a charming anecdote, but it’s point is negated when the amount dead is 260,000 Americans as opposed to 15...

  2. #77
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    Jun 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    Lockdowns work to slow the spread yes. They don't work for a lot of other things. It's about what metrics you look at.
    They don't work for what?



    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
    But prior were doing great. The question is why the change.

    https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=...sclient=psy-ab
    Swedish officials are blaming the spike in cases on people getting tired of following the safety recommendations advised by the government.

  4. #79
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    And their restrictions were minimal.

  5. #80
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    Sep 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncsinmo View Post
    Just out of curiosity, do you actually think there is mitigation of a new flu virus without a vaccine and therapeutics?

    Before you answer do yourself a favor and do some research on the Spanish flu.
    There is mitigation in minimizing deaths until the vaccines and therapeutics are readily available. Like wearing facemasks, not congregating in huge events or crowds, social distancing when possible, good sanitation and hygiene (probably non starters in the US South) etc. Also, overrunning the health system probably isn’t great public policy, unless you’re interested in breaking it in order to rebuild it better, which still isn’t good policy but at least you can conceptualize it.

    Is the inconvenience to your life the real issue here for you? Because just say it instead of trying dance around it; you don’t care if other Americans die from it because vaccines and therapeutics will eventually fix everything, but the current inconvenience isn’t in your best interest. If that’s how you feel, just say it. I understand it.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by catman View Post
    And their restrictions were minimal.
    Well now they aren’t.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    Like from the beginning ... we don't KNOW jack. We can just do our best with what theories and ideas we have. Even with the spike in Sweden, we don't know why it's happening now after months of very low infection rates there. We also don't know just how bad the damage from the shutdowns are or are going to be in the long term. We know that depression and anxiety are through the roof, drug overdoses are way up, suicides are way up, and money is a major factor in health of societies and there is a HUGE amount of money being lost that will likely take decades to recover. People keep talking about how the wealth gap is increasing in the pandemic, well the shutdown is the major cause of that ... rich people always weather disaster better because they have the resources to react proactively to it, everybody else just has to hope things get better and deal day to day.

    I'm not saying one thing is right and the other is wrong, I just think the certainty people seem to have about any decision is bizarre. My wife is immune compromised so my reaction has been to be fairly careful, but my daughter started to fall apart with the isolation so now she is in a school pod with her best friend. There are places that don't allow that and that would be horrible for us if we were in one of those places.

    When this started and I said it would be around for years people thought I was crazy ... not so much anymore

    There are no easy answers. Never have been.

    My point is, there is no herd immunity in sweden, like many on the right have claimed, as that was a big talking point. That much we do know.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webslinger View Post
    My point is, there is no herd immunity in sweden, like many on the right have claimed, as that was a big talking point. That much we do know.
    Who said Sweden had herd immunity? Just said that they were handling it with less restrictions and very successfully until recently.
    My Ignore List: bklynny67, nastynice, OhSoSlick, spliff(TONE), zmaster52

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by statquo View Post
    There is mitigation in minimizing deaths until the vaccines and therapeutics are readily available. Like wearing facemasks, not congregating in huge events or crowds, social distancing when possible, good sanitation and hygiene (probably non starters in the US South) etc. Also, overrunning the health system probably isn’t great public policy, unless you’re interested in breaking it in order to rebuild it better, which still isn’t good policy but at least you can conceptualize it.

    Is the inconvenience to your life the real issue here for you? Because just say it instead of trying dance around it; you don’t care if other Americans die from it because vaccines and therapeutics will eventually fix everything, but the current inconvenience isn’t in your best interest. If that’s how you feel, just say it. I understand it.
    You came up with the bolded in response to me saying lockdowns don't work?

    There is no inconvenience to my life. The only difference in my life today from this time last year is wearing a mask. I am really not certain as to your point or to how you got to it.
    GJO- You will never be forgotten. "MORE THAN MINFINITY"!

  10. #85
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    Jun 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    Gee I don't know, maybe the fact that this country would have experienced way more death if we went the herd immunity route (an approach that we can absolutely claim doesn't work).
    If we went herd immunity route we would be done worrying about covid right now, we would also have proabably about 2.5 to 3 million dead americans.

    I can't say what's worth it, everyone has their own opinion, but given that within 18 months we can have this virus under control I would.personally rather put together an 18 month plan and move forward with that. It's worth saving millions of lives imo.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  11. #86
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    Feb 2005
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    South Dakota
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    the problem is, the way we're doing it, we're doing neither.....reaching herd immunity OR saving lives...at least being able to quantify the numbers
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
    Who said Sweden had herd immunity? Just said that they were handling it with less restrictions and very successfully until recently.
    Was Sweden’s plan to achieve herd immunity or not?

  13. #88
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    May 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncsinmo View Post
    You came up with the bolded in response to me saying lockdowns don't work?

    There is no inconvenience to my life. The only difference in my life today from this time last year is wearing a mask. I am really not certain as to your point or to how you got to it.
    I'd venture that he came up with the bolded in response to the plethora of stupid, selfish, and short-sighted **** you've said about COVID-19 over the last year.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    If we went herd immunity route we would be done worrying about covid right now, we would also have proabably about 2.5 to 3 million dead americans.

    I can't say what's worth it, everyone has their own opinion, but given that within 18 months we can have this virus under control I would.personally rather put together an 18 month plan and move forward with that. It's worth saving millions of lives imo.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    You wouldn't have reached herd immunity at this point. But I do agree that you'd be looking at those types of numbers in deaths.

  15. #90
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    May 2020
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Was Sweden’s plan to achieve herd immunity or not?
    I do not know.

    I do know they were successful and until recently not. What changed besides it getting colder and people being indoors more?
    My Ignore List: bklynny67, nastynice, OhSoSlick, spliff(TONE), zmaster52

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