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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    That's what this mostly was IMO.
    Pretty much. I donít think Turner is a bad player but 3 years at close to $20 mil per for someone who isnít a game changer at the big man spot was probably why Ainge wasnít interested.


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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by PAOboston View Post
    Pretty much. I donít think Turner is a bad player but 3 years at close to $20 mil per for someone who isnít a game changer at the big man spot was probably why Ainge wasnít interested.


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    I can understand the argument against Turner. But I think Ainge underrated the impact he could have made vs the MLE bigs and also underrated how tradable Turner would be down the line if they really didn't like him. He should have just taken that and ran IMO.


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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    You're missing my point. The negotiations between IND and BOS are only part of the story here. The other part of this is that Gordon Hayward is making a major life decision of where to play. If he really wanted to be in IND then he works out a FA deal with them. And eventually Ainge is getting an ultimatum. All he negotiation ceases to matter at that point. Hayward's camp is coming to Ainge with IND saying this is where we want to be, this is the S&T offer, do you want to accept or not and if not, we're going to CHA.

    Gordon Hayward is not going to just sign with Charlotte as a surprise to Ainge because he didn't like the S&T negotiations. He's not going to use where he lives for the next 4 years as a tool to spite anyone. The negotiation can go on for whatever but eventually it reaches a final judgement day where IND puts their last offer on the table.
    Your going off point to argue against something nobody is debating. Nobody is debating Hayward's motivations, just Ainge's side of negotiations. The offer he was given, the offer he declined, and the offer he counter-offered. He got the bolded part above, that's all my criticism is towards.

    His counter-offer was clear indication of him overplaying Hayward's desire to go to Indiana by manufacturing an unrealistic counter-offer.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    I can understand the argument against Turner. But I think Ainge underrated the impact he could have made vs the MLE bigs and also underrated how tradable Turner would be down the line if they really didn't like him. He should have just taken that and ran IMO.
    Agreed. If it really was an option and he turned it down leading to getting nothing that's a mistake, you just wasted an asset. Turner might not be perfect but there is a big need for a big on Boston and instead they will get basically nothing other than signing some other FA on the cheap as they are over the cap so can't just spend it elsewhere anyways.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    Your going off point to argue against something nobody is debating. Nobody is debating Hayward's motivations, just Ainge's side of negotiations. The offer he was given, the offer he declined, and the offer he counter-offered. He got the bolded part above, that's all my criticism is towards.

    His counter-offer was clear indication of him overplaying Hayward's desire to go to Indiana by manufacturing an unrealistic counter-offer.
    But that counter offer is irrelevant at the end of the day is my point. You're presenting it like Hayward would try to hide from BOS he had other options besides IND. If his goal is to get to IND, how does that help him? He isn't going to play around with where he lives his life as leverage over Ainge. He don't give a **** about that. If he wanted to be in IND as a first choice then the first person he called when he got CHA's offer was probably Ainge to say "hey make this deal or I'm out".

    Anything Ainge or IND tried to leverage or negotiate prior at that point is irrelevant. Eventually it came to this... Ainge was given a final offer from IND to do the S&T. knowing he could either accept that or Hayward was walking. Any prior negotiation tactics or whatever are out the window at that point. He was given an ultimatum and he chose no. That's it. Everything else was just posturing.


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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    I can understand the argument against Turner. But I think Ainge underrated the impact he could have made vs the MLE bigs and also underrated how tradable Turner would be down the line if they really didn't like him. He should have just taken that and ran IMO.
    It's this. The homer bias is trying to comfort many people who choose to believe otherwise.

    Teams were offering lottery picks for Turner. Turner is a 24yr old Center on a flat (non-backloaded) $17.5M contract. You can easily trade that guy again barring he doesn't rupture his Achilles or tear an ACL.

  7. #67
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    The only acceptable reason for passing on Turner to me would have been if the deal had BOS taking back enough salary to be in the tax. If we go over the tax this year it's probably going to cost us over $100M down the line with repeater rates in '22-23 vs just regular rate. So I totally get passing on Turner at that all-in cost.

    Even then, I think whatever the cost to salary dump McDermott/Lead/Lamb (I presume some combo of that was the filler IND was sending) would have been worth it to get Turner vs. trying our hand in this FA market.


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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    But that counter offer is irrelevant at the end of the day is my point. You're presenting it like Hayward would try to hide from BOS he had other options besides IND. If his goal is to get to IND, how does that help him? He isn't going to play around with where he lives his life as leverage over Ainge. He don't give a **** about that. If he wanted to be in IND as a first choice then the first person he called when he got CHA's offer was probably Ainge to say "hey make this deal or I'm out".

    Anything Ainge or IND tried to leverage or negotiate prior at that point is irrelevant. Eventually it came to this... Ainge was given a final offer from IND to do the S&T. knowing he could either accept that or Hayward was walking. Any prior negotiation tactics or whatever are out the window at that point. He was given an ultimatum and he chose no. That's it. Everything else was just posturing.
    You keep trying to argue something nobody is even tallying about. I'm sorry that you're choosing to not understand it.

    All I'm talking about is action and reaction not motivations.

    Action: One of my key rotation players opts out and wants to initiate a sign and trade offer to have me receive Turner and McDermott in compensation for facilitating his departure

    Reaction: If you want me to take Turner, you better add Oladipo or Warren instead of McDermott

    All that I'm talking about was whether this was a smart reaction.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    The only acceptable reason for passing on Turner to me would have been if the deal had BOS taking back enough salary to be in the tax. If we go over the tax this year it's probably going to cost us over $100M down the line with repeater rates in '22-23 vs just regular rate. So I totally get passing on Turner at that all-in cost.
    This is not a logical assumption given his rumored counter-offer.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    You keep trying to argue something nobody is even tallying about. I'm sorry that you're choosing to not understand it.

    All I'm talking about is action and reaction not motivations.

    Action: One of my key rotation players opts out and wants to initiate a sign and trade offer to have me receive Turner and McDermott in compensation for facilitating his departure

    Reaction: If you want me to take Turner, you better add Oladipo or Warren instead of McDermott

    All that I'm talking about was whether this was a smart reaction.
    My point is just that the reaction you're talking about isn't what killed the deal. Ainge trying to leverage more didn't ruin the potential S&T. Ainge not liking IND's final offer still knowing he would lose him for nothing is what likely did.


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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    This is not a logical assumption given his rumored counter-offer.
    It's worth paying the extra tax down the line and dealing with whatever salary slashing moves you need to make if you get to have one of those stacked teams now. And it seems improbably that Ainge ever realistically expected to get those guys back anyway. It was probably "if you send me back extra salary it needs to be good players I'm not taking the crap you want to get rid of to make your numbers work - if you want to send that out pay to dump it it another team"


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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    My point is just that the reaction you're talking about isn't what killed the deal. Ainge trying to leverage more didn't ruin the potential S&T. Ainge not liking IND's final offer still knowing he would lose him for nothing is what likely did.
    I think it did. When you are that far apart in negotiations and receive almost an "insulting" counter offer, and you don't have weeks or days like previous free agency periods, it hastens your decisions.

    In this case Hayward's camp said we better move on to Charlotte's offer before it's gone since they're the last team with cap space. Also if this is the type of counter offer Ainge is going to come up with, it's useless even looking for other teams or scandals of S&T deals. We need to just sign a contract outright that doesn't involve the Celtics before the market dries up.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    It's worth paying the extra tax down the line and dealing with whatever salary slashing moves you need to make if you get to have one of those stacked teams now. And it seems improbably that Ainge ever realistically expected to get those guys back anyway. It was probably "if you send me back extra salary it needs to be good players I'm not taking the crap you want to get rid of to make your numbers work - if you want to send that out pay to dump it it another team"
    Well if you want to change my original discussion from action vs reaction to motivations (again, making it clear I wasn't taking about this before).... Yes, I totally agree that Ainge seems spiteful and would rather be stubborn to lose him for nothing.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    I think it did. When you are that far apart in negotiations and receive almost an "insulting" counter offer, and you don't have weeks or days like previous free agency periods, it hastens your decisions.

    In this case Hayward's camp said we better move on to Charlotte's offer before it's gone since they're the last team with cap space. Also if this is the type of counter offer Ainge is going to come up with, it's useless even looking for other teams or scandals of S&T deals. We need to just sign a contract outright that doesn't involve the Celtics before the market dries up.
    But again you're talking about Hayward's desire to play in IND being impacted by Ainge's negotiation. I just don't see that. I don't think one has to do with the other. That's where Hayward supposedly wanted to be. So if he had an offer ready to accept from IND then I just believe at the end of the day there was eventually a S&T brought to Ainge, take it or leave it ad the last step in all of this.


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  15. #75
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    Hayward to CHA (4 years, $120M)

    https://twitter.com/thenbacentral/st...740306434?s=21

    The Cs never had interest in helping the Pacers by taking on Turner and his contract. Cs wanted wing players. Seems sort of silly for Indy to not want to give up role players for Hayward. Hayward is a much better player than both of those guys.

    Also sounds like Cs had Tristan Thompson lined up too

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    Last edited by PAOboston; 11-21-2020 at 09:30 PM.

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