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Thread: Wood to Rockets

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    youre assuming Morey is willing to do this trade. We still dont know if Stone is even allowed to talk to Morey.
    theres two sides to the coin here. You might think its an over payment for harden on a 2 year deal, we could easily argue that you are over valuing your prospects in the deal. Simmons still cant shoot a lick either and that has proven to be a sticking point for any player in this era.
    Also like I said before, the Rockets are in no rush to make a trade. They have time, and thats the only thing they have on their side so itll be wise to wait it out and field all the possible offers. Its not like were all holding our breath for Simmons, Thybulle, and Milton. All are good young pieces, but dont do enough for a rebuild with out picks.
    I also Think Morey will give Simmons a chance before he tries to move him. The only reason Morey would move Simmons is due to the lack of shooting, which would be the same concern for any team taking him on.
    I too think Morey will give Simmons a chance. We all know that Simmons and Embiid are good together. All the moves Morey made compliment his two stars with shooting. But I still take issue with your statement that Simmons, Thybulle and Milton wouldn't be enough for a rebuild. I don't think Morey gives up all three in a trade for Harden.
    Simmons is a blue chipper, regardless of his shooting. He's probably one of the five best defenders in the league and a better passer than Harden who hadn't been fully unleashed in a front-loaded lineup and archaic offense. His usage rate was 15% less than Harden's. And again: He's seven years younger, has two to three more years on his contract and is significantly cheaper, which seems to matter to Ferttita.
    I think we'll see Simmons' usage and value increase under Doc Rivers and Morey. But he'd be an absolute beast taking over in Houston. The simple equation is to surround Simmons with shooters and let him rampage around the rim while kicking it out to whoever's open. That could be a legitimate new identity for Houston.
    We haven't seen a ton from Thybulle or Milton at 20 minutes a game last season, but they're both 6'5" guards with a ton of promise locked up for at least eight years. Thybulle will at least perennially be one of the best defenders in the league and so far hasn't dipped below 35% from three. Milton, meanwhile, shot over 40% from three in the regular season and the playoffs with a nearly 2-to-1 assist-to-turnover ratio.
    You could talk me into Simmons, Thybulle, Milton and Scott (to make it work financially) for Harden and Danuel House Jr. — no picks. I think Houston is giving up more long-term in that deal, but it's at least palatable.

    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    The league also knew that Davis wanted out. They got decent value in return. The Rockets will field all offers and eventually take the best one. They have 2-3 years to do it. So They can also wait another season to see if Simmons is willing to take a shot outside the paint. When you say Simmons could reach Hardens value alone, that all depends on his willingness and ability to shoot. His value can actually drop lower if isnt able to improve significantly in that area.
    The Lakers overpaid for Davis to please LeBron and Klutch. Davis was also six years younger than Harden is now. Even then, the Pelicans didn't get anyone as good as Simmons in that trade — not even Ingram at his best. And Pelinka is an inferior GM compared to Griffin or Morey.
    I agree with you on the waiting part. All signs point to the two teams standing pat. But by the end of next season, Simmons' value compared to Harden's will only increase.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrblisterdundee View Post
    I too think Morey will give Simmons a chance. We all know that Simmons and Embiid are good together. All the moves Morey made compliment his two stars with shooting. But I still take issue with your statement that Simmons, Thybulle and Milton wouldn't be enough for a rebuild. I don't think Morey gives up all three in a trade for Harden.
    Simmons is a blue chipper, regardless of his shooting. He's probably one of the five best defenders in the league and a better passer than Harden who hadn't been fully unleashed in a front-loaded lineup and archaic offense. His usage rate was 15% less than Harden's. And again: He's seven years younger, has two to three more years on his contract and is significantly cheaper, which seems to matter to Ferttita.
    I think we'll see Simmons' usage and value increase under Doc Rivers and Morey. But he'd be an absolute beast taking over in Houston. The simple equation is to surround Simmons with shooters and let him rampage around the rim while kicking it out to whoever's open. That could be a legitimate new identity for Houston.
    We haven't seen a ton from Thybulle or Milton at 20 minutes a game last season, but they're both 6'5" guards with a ton of promise locked up for at least eight years. Thybulle will at least perennially be one of the best defenders in the league and so far hasn't dipped below 35% from three. Milton, meanwhile, shot over 40% from three in the regular season and the playoffs with a nearly 2-to-1 assist-to-turnover ratio.
    You could talk me into Simmons, Thybulle, Milton and Scott (to make it work financially) for Harden and Danuel House Jr. — no picks. I think Houston is giving up more long-term in that deal, but it's at least palatable.



    The Lakers overpaid for Davis to please LeBron and Klutch. Davis was also six years younger than Harden is now. Even then, the Pelicans didn't get anyone as good as Simmons in that trade — not even Ingram at his best. And Pelinka is an inferior GM compared to Griffin or Morey.
    I agree with you on the waiting part. All signs point to the two teams standing pat. But by the end of next season, Simmons' value compared to Harden's will only increase.
    A lot of your points are based off of projected potential. All these players' value can decrease too. You're assuming they all improve, and reach their full potential. Coaches would love, if all their prospects steadily improved and reached their potential, it doesn't always happen. We have to go based off of what their actual value is today, and not what it might be in a few years because it can swing in either direction. For example, the Lakers envisioned Lonzo Ball to have had a certain amount of potential, has he reached it? I could argue the number 2 pick itself was worth more than the player Lonzo is today.

    Also, you can sell me on these young players and their potential, but we would be completely banking on their development if we traded for them with out any picks. And remember the trade offer is with only 2 of the 3 players. At some point you have to put yourself in the shoes of the other team. If Harden was on your team would you give him up for Simmons and Thybulle? I wouldn't. His value in reality is higher than what it is on PSD.

    Until Simmons learns to shoot outside the paint, its going to be a hard sell to any one that he is a complete player. Its not something you can down play. This is a different era of basketball. Perimeter players need to shoot. Spacing is a huge, huge factor in this era. Even 5's dont get away with not being able to space the floor. The importance of shooting is not something you can down play for any player, but especially not for a perimeter player.

    Im not saying that the trade idea is awful. Rather just saying maybe the 6ers are not a good trade partner considering we would need picks first and foremost being that we dont have many and that were heading toward a rebuild.
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 11-25-2020 at 02:53 PM.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    A lot of your points are based off of projected potential. All these players' value can decrease too. You're assuming they all improve, and reach their full potential. Coaches would love, if all their prospects steadily improved and reached their potential, it doesn't always happen. We have to go based off of what their actual value is today, and not what it might be in a few years because it can swing in either direction. For example, the Lakers envisioned Lonzo Ball to have had a certain amount of potential, has he reached it? I could argue the number 2 pick itself was worth more than the player Lonzo is today.

    Also, you can sell me on these young players and their potential, but we would be completely banking on their development if we traded for them with out any picks. And remember the trade offer is with only 2 of the 3 players. At some point you have to put yourself in the shoes of the other team. If Harden was on your team would you give him up for Simmons and Thybulle? I wouldn't. His value in reality is higher than what it is on PSD.

    Until Simmons learns to shoot outside the paint, its going to be a hard sell to any one that he is a complete player. Its not something you can down play. This is a different era of basketball. Perimeter players need to shoot. Spacing is a huge, huge factor in this era. Even 5's dont get away with not being able to space the floor. The importance of shooting is not something you can down play for any player, but especially not for a perimeter player.

    Im not saying that the trade idea is awful. Rather just saying maybe the 6ers are not a good trade partner considering we would need picks first and foremost being that we dont have many and that were heading toward a rebuild.
    Everything you argue about the development of Thybulle and Milton, I could argue about any picks Houston might receive. There's no guarantee any draftee reaches their potential. And I seriously doubt any late first-rounders Houston would receive from Philly would yield the same value Milton and Thybulle have already shown in the league.
    Whether Simmons should even be considered a perimeter player is up for debate. He could just as easily be the most dangerous small-ball center in the league. That's part of his value. Simmons can't shoot like Jokic, but he can defend every position, get to the rim at will and hit any shooter he wants with a pinpoint pass.
    You don't have to go off of a player's present value and context within their team. GMs are constantly imagining what a player could be in a different system. Simmons is the best example of that.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrblisterdundee View Post
    Everything you argue about the development of Thybulle and Milton, I could argue about any picks Houston might receive. There's no guarantee any draftee reaches their potential. And I seriously doubt any late first-rounders Houston would receive from Philly would yield the same value Milton and Thybulle have already shown in the league.
    Whether Simmons should even be considered a perimeter player is up for debate. He could just as easily be the most dangerous small-ball center in the league. That's part of his value. Simmons can't shoot like Jokic, but he can defend every position, get to the rim at will and hit any shooter he wants with a pinpoint pass.
    You don't have to go off of a player's present value and context within their team. GMs are constantly imagining what a player could be in a different system. Simmons is the best example of that.
    thats a bad assumption bro. Toronto & Miami succesfully attained talen with undrafted players, 2nd round picks, and mid to late first round picks. Its all about scouting. Yes you run the risk of getting a bust but that risk applies with lottery picks too. Either way, I dont know a rebuilding team that doesnt want picks... honestly colour me puzzled, since when in the NBA do teams rebuild with out picks or ship off superstars with out getting picks back along with good young players? give me an example because I cant even really think of one.

    Miami Heat
    Bam selected with the 14th pick
    Herro selected with the 13th pick
    Robinson - undrafted
    Nunn - undrafted

    Toronto Raptors
    Siakam 27th pick
    OG- 23rd pick
    FVV - undrafted
    Terrance Davis - undrafted
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 11-27-2020 at 01:02 PM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    thats a bad assumption bro. Toronto & Miami succesfully attained talen with undrafted players, 2nd round picks, and mid to late first round picks. Its all about scouting. Yes you run the risk of getting a bust but that risk applies with lottery picks too. Either way, I dont know a rebuilding team that doesnt want picks... honestly colour me puzzled, since when in the NBA do teams rebuild with out picks or ship off superstars with out getting picks back along with good young players? give me an example because I cant even really think of one.

    Miami Heat
    Bam selected with the 14th pick
    Herro selected with the 13th pick
    Robinson - undrafted
    Nunn - undrafted

    Toronto Raptors
    Siakam 27th pick
    OG- 23rd pick
    FVV - undrafted
    Terrance Davis - undrafted
    Milton was drafted 24th. Thybulle was drafted 20th. They're products of good scouting. Based on their performance so far, either one of those guys could easily be better than anything Houston could get from later draft picks.
    We'll have to agree to disagree on this, bro. I think Simmons' value is near Harden's, given his seven years of age difference, superior athleticism, being better at everything except scoring and extra 2-3 years on the contract. Just because he hasn't been maximized in Philly doesn't mean he can't run his own team. Don't expect Morey to give up Simmons, Thybulle or Milton and a ton of picks. It just isn't going to happen, especially if the trade happens later rather than sooner.

  6. #66
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    With this deal the Rockets are hard capped at the apron of just under $139M, so either they are going to make more moves or they are going to struggle to get a full roster. But there may be cap holds they are already clearing too. Still that team is going to have pretty big roster turnover.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    With this deal the Rockets are hard capped at the apron of just under $139M, so either they are going to make more moves or they are going to struggle to get a full roster. But there may be cap holds they are already clearing too. Still that team is going to have pretty big roster turnover.
    Mmm... I dunno that I would say "pretty big." Six of the nine main contributors from last season are still there at this point (Harden, Russ, Tucker, Gordon, McLemore and House) and that doesn't include Clemons or Caboclo, who is expected to return and is working out with the team.

    Covington, Rivers and Green are gone, replaced by Christian Wood, DeMarcus Cousins, Sterling Brown, Ja'Sean Tate and David Nwaba.

    The wild cards for me are Gordon and House. I could easily see one or both getting moved before the season for the right deal. If it was for a big name, I could see Tucker thrown in as well. But given how poor Gordon's stock is after last season, I'm not holding ny breath.

    Bottom line, the core of the team is still pretty much the same. The biggest change will obviously be a new coaching staff and actually having legit big men on the roster.


  8. #68
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    That Covington deal still doesn’t make sense to me, especially to a conference rival. That had “blow the team up” written all over it......and then they didn’t blow the team up. Thought they did it to get Ariza back to soothe Harden a bit but he was immediately shipped out (Tilman was obviously not paying Ariza $11 million if it meant they were in the tax). If Covington was only dealt to get under the tax, why wasn’t it Gordon instead if you’re not going to get anything in return?

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddletramp View Post
    That Covington deal still doesn’t make sense to me, especially to a conference rival. That had “blow the team up” written all over it......and then they didn’t blow the team up. Thought they did it to get Ariza back to soothe Harden a bit but he was immediately shipped out (Tilman was obviously not paying Ariza $11 million if it meant they were in the tax). If Covington was only dealt to get under the tax, why wasn’t it Gordon instead if you’re not going to get anything in return?
    To deal Gordon, a negative value multi year contract, they would have had to include picks that they don’t have to incentivize the other team.

    Seemed obvious that they targeted Wood. They didn’t have enough room below the apron to offer him the full MLE, never mind the deal for a little more than MLE he ended up getting. They had to do it through S&T which involved DET taking back money. The only money that HOU could send back and make it work was Tucker, Gordon or Covington. As mentioned above, Gordon is out of the question because he’s such a negative value. By moving Convington to POR they got a couple 1sts and the salary ballast they needed. Took one of the 1sts to incentivize DET to take back overweight salary and help their best young player walk out the door. Tucker wouldn’t have returned the kind of value.

    I don’t think landing Christian Wood was possible in any way other than moving Covington. Both from a salary cap perspective and a trade value with Detroit perspective.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    To deal Gordon, a negative value multi year contract, they would have had to include picks that they don’t have to incentivize the other team.

    Seemed obvious that they targeted Wood. They didn’t have enough room below the apron to offer him the full MLE, never mind the deal for a little more than MLE he ended up getting. They had to do it through S&T which involved DET taking back money. The only money that HOU could send back and make it work was Tucker, Gordon or Covington. As mentioned above, Gordon is out of the question because he’s such a negative value. By moving Convington to POR they got a couple 1sts and the salary ballast they needed. Took one of the 1sts to incentivize DET to take back overweight salary and help their best young player walk out the door. Tucker wouldn’t have returned the kind of value.

    I don’t think landing Christian Wood was possible in any way other than moving Covington. Both from a salary cap perspective and a trade value with Detroit perspective.
    So this new regime value picks more than offloading negative value contracts yet they traded their 16th pick for a heavily protected future one just to avoid adding more salary to their payroll lol. Morey was able to add a low pick to offload Horford who has an even worse contract and contributed much less than Gordon to free up much more salary then the Rockets approach [emoji1751]

    Rockets is now the worst run organization in the league and it starts with the owner [emoji58]

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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddletramp View Post
    That Covington deal still doesn’t make sense to me, especially to a conference rival. That had “blow the team up” written all over it......and then they didn’t blow the team up. Thought they did it to get Ariza back to soothe Harden a bit but he was immediately shipped out (Tilman was obviously not paying Ariza $11 million if it meant they were in the tax). If Covington was only dealt to get under the tax, why wasn’t it Gordon instead if you’re not going to get anything in return?
    If the Sixers could have traded Horford plus picks for Gordon plus filler by last season trade deadline, it would have been done as the Sixers desperately needed shooters by that time but Morey knows better than to take crap back but now that he's here he was able to trade Horford in a pinch. Having a miracle worker as a GM makes a world of difference!

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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddletramp View Post
    That Covington deal still doesn’t make sense to me, especially to a conference rival. That had “blow the team up” written all over it......and then they didn’t blow the team up. Thought they did it to get Ariza back to soothe Harden a bit but he was immediately shipped out (Tilman was obviously not paying Ariza $11 million if it meant they were in the tax). If Covington was only dealt to get under the tax, why wasn’t it Gordon instead if you’re not going to get anything in return?
    Essentially the Covington deal got them two first round picks and the cap flexibility to get Wood. When you factor that into the equation, it's a win. They basically traded Covington for two protected firsts and an extremely versatile two-way stretch starting center.

    Also, nobody wants Gordon, as his value is hot garbage. If they move Gordon, they'd either have to take a longer contract back or add assets to his contract to move him. That's why it had to be RoCo.


  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Essentially the Covington deal got them two first round picks and the cap flexibility to get Wood. When you factor that into the equation, it's a win. They basically traded Covington for two protected firsts and an extremely versatile two-way stretch starting center.

    Also, nobody wants Gordon, as his value is hot garbage. If they move Gordon, they'd either have to take a longer contract back or add assets to his contract to move him. That's why it had to be RoCo.
    Which 2 firsts? Did I miss part of the reporting?

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    Which 2 firsts? Did I miss part of the reporting?
    Pistons 2021 1st rounder top 16 protected and the Blazers 2021 1st rounder protected but idk for what selections.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by NBA all the way View Post
    Pistons 2021 1st rounder top 16 protected and the Blazers 2021 1st rounder protected but idk for what selections.
    Nvm. Thought you said 2020.
    Last edited by beasted86; 11-28-2020 at 11:01 PM.

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