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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    PEDs also allow a player to do things he otherwise wouldn't have been able to do. For example, Barry Bonds was a much better player after age 35 than he was before.
    Was Bonds a HOFer before age 35?

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Was Bonds a HOFer before age 35?
    On the first ballot.

    Was he the greatest slugger who ever lived?

    Not even in the conversation. But after age 35 he actually eclipsed Babe Ruth.

    See the problem? We know roids help u do things u otherwise wouldn't be able to do. But beyond that, it's difficult if not impossible to quantify. Mileage will vary.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    On the first ballot.

    Was he the greatest slugger who ever lived?

    Not even in the conversation. But after age 35 he actually eclipsed Babe Ruth.

    See the problem? We know roids help u do things u otherwise wouldn't be able to do. But beyond that, it's difficult if not impossible to quantify. Mileage will vary.
    But that's my point. Talented players are still talented players. Do they get better using PEDs? Sure but not everything is linear. You can make the case that Bonds was a top 10 player all time before the PEDs made him the Incredible Hulk. Not every steroid user is using to that extent either. Bonds was clearly on the juice throughout that whole phase of him hitting like he was a video game. That said, he arguably had the best eye in major league history and was still incredibly talented offensively and defensively. PEDs didn't make him.

    Its a case by case basis type thing too. Cano wasn't Mark McGwire. He wasn't a one dimensional slugger and nothing else. In Cano's prime, he was great at everything except baserunning.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    But that's my point. Talented players are still talented players. Do they get better using PEDs? Sure but not everything is linear. You can make the case that Bonds was a top 10 player all time before the PEDs made him the Incredible Hulk. Not every steroid user is using to that extent either. Bonds was clearly on the juice throughout that whole phase of him hitting like he was a video game. That said, he arguably had the best eye in major league history and was still incredibly talented offensively and defensively. PEDs didn't make him.

    Its a case by case basis type thing too. Cano wasn't Mark McGwire. He wasn't a one dimensional slugger and nothing else. In Cano's prime, he was great at everything except baserunning.
    You're still making assumptions about Cano I wouldn't make. Your best argument is why wasn't he suspended earlier if he was using his entire career. Perhaps he was using a masking agent that cleared earlier testing? But like the President, I have no evidence to back up my claim. I just refuse to give anyone caught using PEDs the benefit of the doubt.

    In my courtroom, that's a just and deserved penalty.

    Re Bonds: PEDs didn't make him into a HOFer. But they did transform him into the greatest slugger ever. And most remarkably, they did that for him after age 35, when players. are usually on the downside.

    So if PEDs can make a player the greatest slugger ever when he started taking them at age 35, who's to say what they can do for any other professional baseball player?

    We just don't know since there is no way to quantify results on a case by case basis.
    Last edited by fanofclendennon; 11-22-2020 at 08:24 AM.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    You're still making assumptions about Cano I wouldn't make. Your best argument is why wasn't he suspended earlier if he was using his entire career. Perhaps he was using a masking agent that cleared earlier testing? But like the President, I have no evidence to back up my claim. I just refuse to give anyone caught using PEDs the benefit of the doubt.

    In my courtroom, that's a just and deserved penalty.

    Re Bonds: PEDs didn't make him into a HOFer. But they did transform him into the greatest slugger ever. And most remarkably, they did that for him after age 35, when players. are usually on the downside.

    So if PEDs can make a player the greatest slugger ever when he started taking them at age 35, who's to say what they can do for any other professional baseball player?

    We just don't know since there is no way to quantify results on a case by case basis.
    Or he wasn't using and only did so towards the tail end of his career to preserve whatever he could. It was perhaps dumb pride. It happens to a lot of major leaguers who are trying to live up to big contracts or squeezing what they can out of the rest of their career. These guys don't want to go out with a whimper. In some respects, its more admirable than the guy who cashes in and then rests on his big money contract laurels.

    You're underselling how talented Bonds was previous to the PED use. He was a 3 time MVP before age 30. I know how much you appreciate the history of baseball so you know how few of players have 3 MVPs or even have accomplished that at such a young age. I understand your point FOC but Bonds was a arguably one of the best players in baseball history before 2001. That wasn't PED related.

    We can't quantify results but who is taking the bigger leap of faith? The person who is saying that PEDs made players better or the person who is inferring that a guy like Cano wouldn't have had a major league career if it wasn't for PED use when he has hall of fame numbers.
    Last edited by metswon69; 11-22-2020 at 10:20 AM.

  6. #156
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    They have to find a way to void Cano's contract like they did with Cespedes.

  7. #157
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    They did not find a way, Cespedes stupidity did and then his non desire to play this year.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Or he wasn't using and only did so towards the tail end of his career to preserve whatever he could. It was perhaps dumb pride. It happens to a lot of major leaguers who are trying to live up to big contracts or squeezing what they can out of the rest of their career. These guys don't want to go out with a whimper. In some respects, its more admirable than the guy who cashes in and then rests on his big money contract laurels.

    You're underselling how talented Bonds was previous to the PED use. He was a 3 time MVP before age 30. I know how much you appreciate the history of baseball so you know how few of players have 3 MVPs or even have accomplished that at such a young age. I understand your point FOC but Bonds was a arguably one of the best players in baseball history before 2001. That wasn't PED related.

    We can't quantify results but who is taking the bigger leap of faith? The person who is saying that PEDs made players better or the person who is inferring that a guy like Cano wouldn't have had a major league career if it wasn't for PED use when he has hall of fame numbers.
    Obviously i didn't undersell how talented Bonds was when I admitted he was already a first ballot HOF-er pre roids. But that's still a very far cry from out slugging The Babe when you're in your late 30s.

    What you wrote up top is correct. I cannot, will not, refute that. My only response is that we don't know. And as a fan, i refuse to forfeit the benefit of the doubt to any roids user. It remains a difference of opinion between you and me.

  9. #159
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    Steroids allow players to get stronger by training harder. HGH is a different story

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halfmiler2 View Post
    Steroids allow players to get stronger by training harder. HGH is a different story
    Both enable you to do things on the ballfield you otherwise would not have been able to do.

  11. #161
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    They're PEDs. He got caught twice. He's clearly heavily reliant on them, especially now being at the end of his career. Even if he's only been caught twice, who knows how long he's been using through his career?

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry777 View Post
    They're PEDs. He got caught twice. He's clearly heavily reliant on them, especially now being at the end of his career. Even if he's only been caught twice, who knows how long he's been using through his career?

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk
    Harry knows what it's about!
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears but they seem kinda sensible...."

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Harry knows what it's about!
    [emoji41]

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk

  14. #164
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    The good thing is that no GM would be dumb enough to want to trade away valuable assets for a 36 year old ball player with a massive contract who just got caught using PEDs as his skill set would naturally start falling off a cliff.

    I mean, who would do that?

    And even if he did - it's not like it's very likely that the declining old player whose skill sets are naturally deteriorating would ever consider cheating again right? I mean, what are the odds?

    Don't worry. He's got this.

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Both enable you to do things on the ballfield you otherwise would not have been able to do.
    They are both banned and give a player an unfair advantage. He cheated snd must pay the price. But I would still not put him in the category of Barry Bonds. There are cheaters and there are cheaters.

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