Harden Ghosting Rockets

[R. Johnson#3]

You need way more than SGA, though. Toronto needs a bonafide top 10 caliber guy to get past Milwaukee, Boston and Brooklyn. I like Toronto, but the franchise has basically positioned itself to be the Arenas Wizards or the Joe Johnson/Smoove Hawks, a perennial 45-50 win team that gets a top 5-6 seed and is lucky to make it to the second round. Either Siakam, Fred and OG need to jump up a tier or two, or Toronto needs to add a legit superstar if Toronto wants to seriously contend in the East the next few years.

SGA was just an example of a player who’s on the rise and will be available in a couple years. It also helps that he grew up in Mississauga which is right next to Toronto.

A lot can change over the next 4 years. Fred, Siakam and OG being Raptors won’t though. The Raptors took a 6 year route to get to their ring in 2019 riding a core comprised of Lowry, DeMar and JV. Obviously deals were made but those were the main 3 that got them to where they were. As long as the Raps core continues to progress then I’m happy. We’re a franchise that’s based deeply in development and continuity. Which is why I’m willing to bet my bottom dollar that Masai doesn’t deal for Harden.

[mightybosstone]

SGA was just an example of a player who’s on the rise and will be available in a couple years. It also helps that he grew up in Mississauga which is right next to Toronto.

A lot can change over the next 4 years. Fred, Siakam and OG being Raptors won’t though. The Raptors took a 6 year route to get to their ring in 2019 riding a core comprised of Lowry, DeMar and JV. Obviously deals were made but those were the main 3 that got them to where they were. As long as the Raps core continues to progress then I’m happy. We’re a franchise that’s based deeply in development and continuity. Which is why I’m willing to bet my bottom dollar that Masai doesn’t deal for Harden.

I'm not saying they need to trade for James, necessarily, but they've got to pull off something in the next couple of years if they want to remain relevant. Like there's no shame in being that competitive 5-6 seed every year that's fun to watch and has a lot of good players to root for, but I've got to think after winning a title two years ago that Masai and Raptors fans want more than that.

[R. Johnson#3]

I'm not saying they need to trade for James, necessarily, but they've got to pull off something in the next couple of years if they want to remain relevant. Like there's no shame in being that competitive 5-6 seed every year that's fun to watch and has a lot of good players to root for, but I've got to think after winning a title two years ago that Masai and Raptors fans want more than that.

I don’t think the plan is to be a competitive 5th or 6th seed every year. We’re not talking about the Rockets here. As I said before, as long as the core progresses then I’m happy. We have a developmental system that’s churned out quality players. Hell, Fred was an undrafted FA signing and now he’s part of the core.

I think you’re missing my point. When a team has a developmental system as good as the Raps do along with a core of players with the oldest being 26, there’s no rush really. The Raps aren’t a franchise that caters to superstars. Masai has his plan and he goes with it. He doesn’t let superstars control the franchise and call all the shots. Otherwise we’d have Kawhi and PG on our team and would be getting laughed at like the Clippers are. Instead, we got our ring and kept our future intact.

[mightybosstone]

I don’t think the plan is to be a competitive 5th or 6th seed every year. We’re not talking about the Rockets here.

Nice underhanded, totally unnecessary jab at the Rockets. Unlike you, I don't need to go out of my way to troll other teams' fans. I'm just trying to have a legit basketball conversation here, which is what I come to PSD to do. Not troll incessantly.

As I said before, as long as the core progresses then I’m happy. We have a developmental system that’s churned out quality players. Hell, Fred was an undrafted FA signing and now he’s part of the core.

That's all well and good, and I agree Masai has done a hell of a job with the hand he was dealt given that Kawhi turned out to be a one-year rental. But Lowry's probably looking at his last year or two of his prime, and he's a free agent after this season. And between FVV, Siakam and OG, ideally one of those guys needs to turn into that top 10-15 player. Or Toronto needs to acquire a top 10-15 caliber guy.

I think you’re missing my point. When a team has a developmental system as good as the Raps do along with a core of players with the oldest being 26, there’s no rush really. The Raps aren’t a franchise that caters to superstars. Masai has his plan and he goes with it. He doesn’t let superstars control the franchise and call all the shots. Otherwise we’d have Kawhi and PG on our team and would be getting laughed at like the Clippers are. Instead, we got our ring and kept our future intact.

It's not about allowing superstars to call the shots or not. That's not the point I'm making. It's about making the right moves to contend while your core is still young enough to contend and their value is still high. There's no rush for them to make a bunch of moves in the next year or two when they've locked down FVV, OG and Siakam locked in through 2024, especially given that they'll have cap space next year and both FVV and OG are on team-friendly contracts.

But I could easily see this becoming that franchise that waits on guys to reach a next level that never happens and doesn't strike while they have the ability to. No one will criticize Masai for not making a move in the next year if the team doesn't make a big playoff run. But if it happens again a year from now and they still haven't signed any stars to pair with those guys, (plus either losing Lowry or him declining on top of that) then the pressure will mount.

There's still a ton of time for that core to develop and Masai to work his magic. But as constructed, this team is not a legitimate contender, and no one would blame him for making a move for a bigger star while he has the assets to do so.

[Scoots]

I wonder if it's reasonable to get some users to never comment on one team/player?

[Saddletramp]

We’re a franchise that’s based deeply in development and continuity. Which is why I’m willing to bet my bottom dollar that Masai doesn’t deal for Harden.

But the only thing that separates the Raptors of the past half dozen years and the Rockets was a reversal of that “development and continuity.” They went all in with Kawhi knowing they might very well lose him after a year and between that and huge injuries to the Warriors, it worked.

I wouldn’t be surprised if those teams like the Hawks that MBT mentioned won a title if they could trade their overrated top guy for one of the league’s top guys.

[R. Johnson#3]

But the only thing that separates the Raptors of the past half dozen years and the Rockets was a reversal of that “development and continuity.” They went all in with Kawhi knowing they might very well lose him after a year and between that and huge injuries to the Warriors, it worked.

I wouldn’t be surprised if those teams like the Hawks that MBT mentioned won a title if they could trade their overrated top guy for one of the league’s top guys.

How is that a reversal? He developed the core as far as it could go then an opportunity presented itself and he went for it. The Kawhi trade was the final touch on a 6 year road from abysmal to championship. Now he’s set to do it all over with Siakam, Fred and OG. Will any of those players be superstars? Probably not. Will they improve? Probably so. Take Lowry for example. 6 years ago he was a playoff choker. By 2019 he kicked that label and was arguably the 2nd most important piece behind Kawhi.

The whole point of having a team that’s able to compete year in and year out is so that when something like the Kawhi situation arises, you have a shot at it. Same thing with Jimmy going to Philly. The Sixers had that continuity and thought that would be the icing on the cake.

[Saddletramp]

How is that a reversal? He developed the core as far as it could go then an opportunity presented itself and he went for it. The Kawhi trade was the final touch on a 6 year road from abysmal to championship. Now he’s set to do it all over with Siakam, Fred and OG. Will any of those players be superstars? Probably not. Will they improve? Probably so. Take Lowry for example. 6 years ago he was a playoff choker. By 2019 he kicked that label and was arguably the 2nd most important piece behind Kawhi.

The whole point of having a team that’s able to compete year in and year out is so that when something like the Kawhi situation arises, you have a shot at it. Same thing with Jimmy going to Philly. The Sixers had that continuity and thought that would be the icing on the cake.

So continuity and development only take you so far. Got it. Top Ten players don’t become available very often and FA’s that want to join a core like that in Toronto become available even less.

[R. Johnson#3]

Nice underhanded, totally unnecessary jab at the Rockets. Unlike you, I don't need to go out of my way to troll other teams' fans. I'm just trying to have a legit basketball conversation here, which is what I come to PSD to do. Not troll incessantly.

You weren't trolling when you said there's no shame in being a 5th or 6th seed every year?

That's all well and good, and I agree Masai has done a hell of a job with the hand he was dealt given that Kawhi turned out to be a one-year rental. But Lowry's probably looking at his last year or two of his prime, and he's a free agent after this season. And between FVV, Siakam and OG, ideally one of those guys needs to turn into that top 10-15 player. Or Toronto needs to acquire a top 10-15 caliber guy.


It's not about allowing superstars to call the shots or not. That's not the point I'm making. It's about making the right moves to contend while your core is still young enough to contend and their value is still high. There's no rush for them to make a bunch of moves in the next year or two when they've locked down FVV, OG and Siakam locked in through 2024, especially given that they'll have cap space next year and both FVV and OG are on team-friendly contracts.

But I could easily see this becoming that franchise that waits on guys to reach a next level that never happens and doesn't strike while they have the ability to. No one will criticize Masai for not making a move in the next year if the team doesn't make a big playoff run. But if it happens again a year from now and they still haven't signed any stars to pair with those guys, (plus either losing Lowry or him declining on top of that) then the pressure will mount.

There's still a ton of time for that core to develop and Masai to work his magic. But as constructed, this team is not a legitimate contender, and no one would blame him for making a move for a bigger star while he has the assets to do so.

Deep down we all knew Kawhi was a rental. I admit there was maybe a couple of weeks right before the deal happened where I thought he'd stay. If only he was from Toronto lol. We'd be perennial favourites. As for Lowry, I think he takes team friendly deals from here on out. There's trade rumours this year but I can't see Masai dealing the heart and soul of the team away unless Lowry himself requests it. I have a hard time imagining that either. Then again, Ibaka's departure shocked me.

Toronto will need to acquire a top 10-15 calibre type of guy. That's what I'm getting at. Once you insert that player into a lineup that already has Pascal, OG and Fred they become contenders. If they get a top 5 player they become favourites. Fred has been mentored by Kyle Lowry for his entire career and now he's a scrappy defender who loves to draw contact on the drive while also jacking up lots of 3's. He's not as good as Lowry...yet. It sure looks like he's basing his game off the younger version of him though.

If there's one thing I'm confident about it's that Masai will strike when the time is right. In the same off season he fired the reigning coach of the year and traded away one of the most beloved players in franchise history for a rental. That's the definition of cut throat. Masai has unbelievable patience which at times could be very frustrating but he proved that it pays off.

[R. Johnson#3]

So continuity and development only take you so far. Got it. Top Ten players don’t become available very often and FA’s that want to join a core like that in Toronto become available even less.

Jimmy got dealt during the same season. PG and CP3 got dealt the following off-season. Harden is on the brink of being dealt this season. It's looking like superstar players are getting dealt pretty often. Not to mention guys like KD and LeBron signing with new teams.

[Saddletramp]

Jimmy got dealt during the same season. PG and CP3 got dealt the following off-season. Harden is on the brink of being dealt this season. It's looking like superstar players are getting dealt pretty often. Not to mention guys like KD and LeBron signing with new teams.

You’ve already dissed Harden and those other guys aren’t on Kawhi/LeBron/KD’s level.

But you never know, maybe the Nets don’t work out after KD handpicked it and chooses to go north.

[R. Johnson#3]

You’ve already dissed Harden and those other guys aren’t on Kawhi/LeBron/KD’s level.

But you never know, maybe the Nets don’t work out after KD handpicked it and chooses to go north.

Just giving examples to show how many big names move around in the NBA nowadays.

[smith&wesson]

SGA was just an example of a player who’s on the rise and will be available in a couple years. It also helps that he grew up in Mississauga which is right next to Toronto.

A lot can change over the next 4 years. Fred, Siakam and OG being Raptors won’t though. The Raptors took a 6 year route to get to their ring in 2019 riding a core comprised of Lowry, DeMar and JV. Obviously deals were made but those were the main 3 that got them to where they were. As long as the Raps core continues to progress then I’m happy. We’re a franchise that’s based deeply in development and continuity. Which is why I’m willing to bet my bottom dollar that Masai doesn’t deal for Harden.

I don’t know, I have strong doubts. we haven’t won a game yet and I think Siakam is way over paid and will do a worse job leading the Raps than Derozan did. At least Debo got us to a conference finals. I doubt we ever get there with Siakam as our best player. This team now reminds me a lot of the Bosh lead teams which were all 1st round exists, and that’s exactly what I think the Raptors will be as constructed, that’s if they even make the playoffs. The East looks much improved. We’re a 8th or 7th seed at best.

When we got Kawhi we had a core of Lowry/Siakam/Ibaka/OG and we traded JV to get Gasol. We are not in a similar position by any means at this point. Lowry is expiring and turning 35. Ibaka & Gasol are gone. If we made a trade for a star Siakam would likely be shipped out as he’s the only with value to net a star in return. I also don’t like the idea of keeping FVV at the 2 as we know he is truly a pg and barely is 6 feet in height. I really hope that Masai didn’t put all his eggs in the Giannis basket, but it sure seems that way to me. Was the back up plan Baynes and Len all along?

[smith&wesson]

Jimmy got dealt during the same season. PG and CP3 got dealt the following off-season. Harden is on the brink of being dealt this season. It's looking like superstar players are getting dealt pretty often. Not to mention guys like KD and LeBron signing with new teams.

That’s fairly optimistic. When was the last time a super star level talent signed with the Raptors as a free agent?

The only way is to trade for a star and again that would likely entail of parting with Siakam which doesn’t leave much for that star coming in. It’ll be interesting to see what Masai does but right now I’m actually worried about his extension. There’s been 0 news or updates on it and everyone else in terms of the coaching staff etc already signed their deals. Makes you wonder