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  1. #46
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    611
    We were at a crossroads with being over the luxury tax threshold, depleted farm system, and Mookie becoming a FA. I'm glad we trade Mookie before he walked for nothing in return. Would I have liked to see us sign him long term absolutely but did he want to stay in Boston for a decade more? You can;t just dump Eovaldi and Price for nothing that's not how it works. They would still count on the luxury tax and who the heck would've traded for Eovaldi? The only reason we got decent prospects back form LA was because Mookie was involved.

    What we should be complaining about is signing Eovaldi, not trading JD during 2020 season, Benny for having 2 bad seasons, and the Sox organization for not being able to develop SPs.

    With Sale being hurt we aren't even close to sniffing a WS shot and if you couldn't see that the Sox were a few years out of contending beginning 2020 then that's your own fault.

    We are rebuilding our farm system from the worst in the mlb to what 20-23ish? We aren't getting into long term contracts and hopefully be ready to compete for the playoffs come 2022 or 2023 at the latest.

  2. #47
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    A place called Paradise
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    15,194
    Quote Originally Posted by poppapuh86 View Post
    We were at a crossroads with being over the luxury tax threshold, depleted farm system, and Mookie becoming a FA. I'm glad we trade Mookie before he walked for nothing in return. Would I have liked to see us sign him long term absolutely but did he want to stay in Boston for a decade more? You can;t just dump Eovaldi and Price for nothing that's not how it works. They would still count on the luxury tax and who the heck would've traded for Eovaldi? The only reason we got decent prospects back form LA was because Mookie was involved.

    What we should be complaining about is signing Eovaldi, not trading JD during 2020 season, Benny for having 2 bad seasons, and the Sox organization for not being able to develop SPs.

    With Sale being hurt we aren't even close to sniffing a WS shot and if you couldn't see that the Sox were a few years out of contending beginning 2020 then that's your own fault.

    We are rebuilding our farm system from the worst in the mlb to what 20-23ish? We aren't getting into long term contracts and hopefully be ready to compete for the playoffs come 2022 or 2023 at the latest.
    I disagree, we could have eaten $10 mil per year to trade Price, and we could have eaten $5 mil per year to trade Eovaldi. Yeah a waste of money but still saving about $30 mil per year. Would we have gotten anything for them.. no but still save money.

    Then you have two options. Sign Betts for $30 mil a year for 10 years (if he was going to accept it). If he does and you were concerned about the luxury tax.... well trade JD MArtinez

    IF Betts doesn't want to resign no matter what.... well then you trade him by himself and don't kill his value by attaching bad contracts.

    As for Benny there is just no complete logic here. We messed with his swing, he had a meh 2019, then didn't even really have a season in 2020. We traded him when his value couldn't get any lower.

    You can't even use money as an excuse. We traded for Ottavino and his $8-$9 million salary to pick up a very low end prospect. It is just hard to see the big picture here.

    I am not even all that upset with the Betts trade, I just hate that we killed his value by attaching Price's contract. We could have gotten Verdugo, Downs, and another high end prospect.


    To end the rant, I am more upset with ownership right now. Like could we sign Rosenthal to a 1 year $10 million dollar deal? Maybe, and we should, because the bullpen sucks, and he is good. At worse he gets traded at the deadline. We know we will reset the luxury tax after the season anyhow with all the contracts coming off the books.
    Jackie Bradley Junior.... that is all

  3. #48
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    611
    Quote Originally Posted by papipapsmanny View Post
    I disagree, we could have eaten $10 mil per year to trade Price, and we could have eaten $5 mil per year to trade Eovaldi. Yeah a waste of money but still saving about $30 mil per year. Would we have gotten anything for them.. no but still save money.

    Then you have two options. Sign Betts for $30 mil a year for 10 years (if he was going to accept it). If he does and you were concerned about the luxury tax.... well trade JD MArtinez

    IF Betts doesn't want to resign no matter what.... well then you trade him by himself and don't kill his value by attaching bad contracts.

    As for Benny there is just no complete logic here. We messed with his swing, he had a meh 2019, then didn't even really have a season in 2020. We traded him when his value couldn't get any lower.

    You can't even use money as an excuse. We traded for Ottavino and his $8-$9 million salary to pick up a very low end prospect. It is just hard to see the big picture here.

    I am not even all that upset with the Betts trade, I just hate that we killed his value by attaching Price's contract. We could have gotten Verdugo, Downs, and another high end prospect.


    To end the rant, I am more upset with ownership right now. Like could we sign Rosenthal to a 1 year $10 million dollar deal? Maybe, and we should, because the bullpen sucks, and he is good. At worse he gets traded at the deadline. We know we will reset the luxury tax after the season anyhow with all the contracts coming off the books.
    I disagree, we could have eaten $10 mil per year to trade Price, and we could have eaten $5 mil per year to trade Eovaldi. Yeah a waste of money but still saving about $30 mil per year. Would we have gotten anything for them.. no but still save money.

    Explain your logic in eating only $10 mil a year rather than the $15 mil a year are for 3 years on Price. We'd be eating more than the $15 mil a year if it was just a straight salary dump plus we'd have to add prospects which we were extremely thin on at that time.


    Was thre interest in Eovaldi? I don't recall seeing any. I'd sure like to move on from him and hated the resigning from day 1.

    JD - I wanted him gone during the season last year.

  4. #49
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Greenville, SC
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    18,066
    Quote Originally Posted by papipapsmanny View Post
    I disagree, we could have eaten $10 mil per year to trade Price, and we could have eaten $5 mil per year to trade Eovaldi. Yeah a waste of money but still saving about $30 mil per year. Would we have gotten anything for them.. no but still save money.
    I think that you're wrong on the cost of trading Price. We are already eating $16M/yr of his contract. I realize that prospect value can affect the amount that is paid but I'm not sure that it was nearly as much an influence here given that Betts was the target.

    I'm with you on Eovaldi, though. That was an emotional, "keep the band together" reaction to the WS. He was great in the 2018 post season but has zero track record for durability. This is exactly what you pay a good GM to avoid.

    Quote Originally Posted by papipapsmanny View Post
    Then you have two options. Sign Betts for $30 mil a year for 10 years (if he was going to accept it). If he does and you were concerned about the luxury tax.... well trade JD MArtinez
    I think JDM not opting out took them by surprise. I would much rather have traded him prior to ST1 last year.

    Quote Originally Posted by papipapsmanny View Post
    As for Benny there is just no complete logic here. We messed with his swing, he had a meh 2019, then didn't even really have a season in 2020. We traded him when his value couldn't get any lower.
    I was initially WAY down on the Benintendi trade but am starting to warm to it a bit. I liked Benintendi a lot. However, his "meh 2019" (I agree) was more representative of his MLB career than his spectacular 2018. In fact, 2019 is nearly identical to 2017. It's caused me to wonder if we overvalued him because of his meteoric rise through the minors and initial trajectory. Time will tell on that.

    Cordero might match what Benintendi brought in 2017/19. Certainly the platoon with Renfroe could do that. And Cordero appears to be more versatile defensively. The main problem with him is that he has an Eovaldian track record for health.

    The pitching prospect and 3 PTBNL (how do we not have time to work out 4 PTBNL during the offseason???) represent some value as well. They also represent the logic of Bloom's approach: it's all about adding future value. Most of his offseason pitching acquisitions profile similarly -- hard throwing guys with a good or better ceiling and likely a low floor. He's bargain hunting and hoping something of value pops up down the road.

    Quote Originally Posted by papipapsmanny View Post
    You can't even use money as an excuse. We traded for Ottavino and his $8-$9 million salary to pick up a very low end prospect. It is just hard to see the big picture here.
    I won't be shocked to see Ottavino split CL duties with Barnes (whom I don't really trust as a closer). At least one of the two is trade bait for even more future value.

    Quote Originally Posted by papipapsmanny View Post
    I am not even all that upset with the Betts trade, I just hate that we killed his value by attaching Price's contract. We could have gotten Verdugo, Downs, and another high end prospect.
    Agreed


    Quote Originally Posted by papipapsmanny View Post
    To end the rant, I am more upset with ownership right now. Like could we sign Rosenthal to a 1 year $10 million dollar deal? Maybe, and we should, because the bullpen sucks, and he is good. At worse he gets traded at the deadline. We know we will reset the luxury tax after the season anyhow with all the contracts coming off the books.
    Agree here as well... at least on the potential moves. I'm sure a bunch of guys would have taken higher AAV for a year and a chance to earn more in 2022. I don't understand why so much of what we did this offseason is pick off the bottom shelf at Walmart. Who do you even call the Red Sox "main offseason acquisition"? Hernandez? Richards?

  5. #50
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    34
    I still can't believe this team traded Betts....a generational talent...so in 10 years when Betts has 5 or more rings and the Sox are still building and averaging 85 wins...maybe then they'll admit. they were stupid. The Red Sox should be out there outspending everyone every year...competing with the Dodger and Yankees for every top player. This is a joke. They have become IRRELEVANT. You don't trade away a guy like Betts...I thought they learned their lesson from 1918...
    The Dodgers and Yankees shop at Louis Vuitton and the Sox shop at the Clearance rack at Building #19.
    Except for Linda's handbags though...

  6. #51
    Join Date
    May 2006
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    Greenville, SC
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    18,066
    Quote Originally Posted by factnotopinion7 View Post
    I still can't believe this team traded Betts....a generational talent...so in 10 years when Betts has 5 or more rings and the Sox are still building and averaging 85 wins...maybe then they'll admit. they were stupid. The Red Sox should be out there outspending everyone every year...competing with the Dodger and Yankees for every top player. This is a joke. They have become IRRELEVANT. You don't trade away a guy like Betts...I thought they learned their lesson from 1918...
    The Dodgers and Yankees shop at Louis Vuitton and the Sox shop at the Clearance rack at Building #19.
    Except for Linda's handbags though...
    Eh, I don't really agree, at least with the bold part. The Dodgers bridged into their current success by buying top talent with an ownership committed to that process. But what they built was sustainable through the farm system. Ironically, it was not until after the Dodgers got under the luxury tax threshold that they actually won a world series. They have sustained a level of excellence (three WS appearances in four years, with one title) with wise spending, not corner-the-market spending. They've been at least $5M under the CBT for the last three years. They can afford to blow it this year because of that fiscal responsibility.

    The Yankees are arguably trying to buy a WS... but failing. They've been over the CBT for eight of the last nine years (source of solace for Red Sox fans -- they were under when we won the WS). The one year they went under, the Yankees pulled off a dramatic rebuild-in-place and reset the roster to a very competitive core, ableit one augmented with very expensive complements. It might feel good to compete with them, but I honestly think that they are an example of why it's bad business... or at least risky business. For example, they're paying pretty good money to Stanton who had a debut that is slightly below his career average season and has barely played more than one season's worth of games. Yes, the pandemic shortened a season. As did yet another injury. But that's the risk involved. There are other examples on their (historic) rosters along these lines as well. Despite this CBT excess, they're still looking for their third WS title since 2000 (and first since 2009). Don't read this as a Yankee-hating sneer -- they've fielded great teams at great expense... but fallen short of the goal.

    I would have loved to have kept Betts. I would have preferred to send out JDM, Eovaldi, or a host of others and kept him. But I also understand the situation: he refused to sign an extension when he was with the Red Sox and going to FA with him was a risk. I wouldn't at all be surprised if the Yankees or Dodgers won his services either because they paid more OR had other things that the Sox could not offer (So Cal is a pretty nice place to live). Maybe they should have rolled the dice and tried to extend him to his Troutian deal.

    Honestly, if you don't like the current Red Sox then I would put the blame squarely on the shoulders of the current Phillies GM (or PBO or whatever they call DD down there). His burn-the-ships, win-now mold has produced similar results everywhere he has gone. The Tigers haven't full recovered and he left there five years ago. It's a combination of promoting everyone who appears to be talented ASAP, overpaying for power arms in the rotation, and trading anyone whom you consider fools gold (high ceiling, well-regarded but with some doubts). The Tigers and Marlins could never rebuild their systems until he was gone. The lack of quality players meant no one who could be flipped for prospects. And the overpayment for SP with generally short peaks meant a team with a short window to compete.

  7. #52
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Greenville, SC
    Posts
    18,066
    First it was the Yankees. Now it's the Rays.

    Chaim Bloom has certainly shown he isn't afraid to deal within his own division, following up a trade with the Yankees by scooping up a catcher and infielder from the Rays Wednesday morning. (The deal is according to multiple reports, with Alex Speier first surfacing the agreement.)

    The Sox are getting catcher Ronaldo Hernandez and infielder Nick Sogard in exchange for pitchers Jeffrey Springs and Chris Mazza. Both Springs and Mazza had recently been designated for assignment to make room on the 40-man roster.

    The 23-year-old Sogard was a 12th-round pick of the Rays in the 2019 MLB Draft, and is the nephew of former big leaguers Steve Sax and his brother Dave, who played briefly for the Red Sox. He is also the cousin of current major leaguer Eric Sogard.

    Sogard, a shortstop out of Loyola Marymount, hit .290 with a .718 OPS in 63 games for short-season Single-A Hudson Valley 9in 2019. (For a look at how he managed 2020, click here.)
    weei.com

    Surprise! A future-value deal. Honestly, not bad return for two guys that Bloom DFA in the last few days. Mazza was better than anticipated with the Sox, but only because expectations were low. Springs was the first signing of the Bloom era, and his 7.08 ERA in very limited innings suggested that he wasn't going to gain the confidence of his manager(s) any time soon. Ironically, the corresponding move made in Tampa to get both pitchers on the 40-man roster was to move Jalen Beeks, whom the Red Sox traded to get Eovaldi, to the 60-day IL.

    Hernandez has had a promising path towards MLB so far. He was ranked among the top 100 prospects in 2019 (BA #58, MLB #84) courtesy of a .293/.345/.457 slash from a catcher. He's thrown out 45% of would-be base stealers, though the number has predictably dropped as he's risen through the minors.

    Sogard has experience at three infield positions (2B/SS/3B) and while his .209/.405/.313 line won't blow away the field, his 16% K-rate/15% BB-rate in Low A ball combine to a decent barometer. With slightly better than average defense, he wouldn't be the first light-hitting UTL IF the league has ever seen.

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