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Thread: Jets talk

  1. #1846
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    Quote Originally Posted by ortforshort View Post
    The Jets had a historically bad defense last year.

    They were blown out in nearly half their games.

    They gave up a record number of points.

    Their defense was ranked last in the league and their run defense was beyond last in the league.

    They need safeties and linebackers but they also need defensive linemen.

    Its disturbing that the one strength of the 2020 team, interior line against the run, was a major weakness in 2021 - with the same guys!
    Quinnen Williams was an up an coming star in 2020, now they are not extending him in 2021.
    Foli Fatukasi who was highly rated in 2020 apparently isn't going to be re-signed in for 2022.
    No bueno. You can't say its a scheme thing. You can't defend the scheme of a historically bad defense and say we want to sacrafice two big talents for the scheme - which obviously don't work too good. Douglas needs to tell his coaches, "I can't be hemorrhaging talent to protect your crappy scheme. Change your scheme to provide an environment where these top talents can succeed. It is unacceptable to get rid of what little talent we have to protect your garbage defensive scheme."

    As it is now, we need to be spending draft capital on defensive linemen on top of linebackers and safeties. Where does it end with this bozo crew of coaches. They need to get their act together and Douglas needs to lay down the law to them to do it. Kicking Williams and Fatukasi to the curb is about as good a long term strategy is following these moron's defensive schemes
    Where do you get your news from? CNN or TMZ?

  2. #1847
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry M View Post
    Where do you get your news from? CNN or TMZ?
    I guess by that you're saying that the Jets had a good defense last year.
    Did you watch the games? All the way thru? After one debacle after another? The Jets weren't worth CNN's or TMZ's time, by the way. Still aren't.

    Are you denying that it was a historically bad defense?
    Everyone posting here seems to want to give this coaching staff a pass and try to deny how bad things really were as a result.
    There have been zillions of first year coaching staffs in the past and none of them have been as bad as this. So let's not try to use the "it was only their first year" to mollify how bad it really was.

    Also, is that what the Jets have degenerated into? A training ground for first year coaches to see if they can develop any real coaching skills? Imagine if these guys came in to one of the better organizations. They would have been run out of town. Here, after Gaze, I guess anyone who can put two sentences together at a press conference looks like Vince Lombardi
    Last edited by ortforshort; 01-27-2022 at 05:22 AM.

  3. #1848
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccugrad1 View Post
    But see, I don't think the offseason is as much about Zach Wilson as it is about getting a defense that doesn't allow nearly 30 PPG. Even some of your playoff teams are not going to be able to overcome that on a week to week basis. Allowing 504 points in 17 games is horrendous on so many levels. I know people talk about offense with the top picks in the draft; I feel like at least 3 of the 4 need to be on defensive players.
    I think the D had a ton of injuries and low level payers playing in high level situations. Yes. They need to improve but I believe at full strength, they were better than they played.
    They absolutely need to get better on that side.
    For me, I have said I would be fine with 2 OL early and the rest Defense/WR/TE. That can be done via draft or FA.

    If Joe does well, this team changes a bunch.
    If Zac improves. This team changes dramatically.

    Those two things need to happen for a significant improvement, to the point of playoffs. That's what I was trying to say.

    I suspect Joe will do a good, not great job and Zac improves a bit but not a ton. I think we see good improvement but not a bottom of the barrel to top of the heap.
    I am fine with that. I prefer the loser to winner overnight but I think this will take a bit longer.



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  4. #1849
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    Quote Originally Posted by ortforshort View Post
    I guess by that you're saying that the Jets had a good defense last year.
    Did you watch the games? All the way thru? After one debacle after another? The Jets weren't worth CNN's or TMZ's time, by the way. Still aren't.

    Are you denying that it was a historically bad defense?
    Everyone posting here seems to want to give this coaching staff a pass and try to deny how bad things really were as a result.
    There have been zillions of first year coaching staffs in the past and none of them have been as bad as this. So let's not try to use the "it was only their first year" to mollify how bad it really was.

    Also, is that what the Jets have degenerated into? A training ground for first year coaches to see if they can develop any real coaching skills? Imagine if these guys came in to one of the better organizations. They would have been run out of town. Here, after Gaze, I guess anyone who can put two sentences together at a press conference looks like Vince Lombardi
    A pass? Like give Zac? It's fairly hypocritical to keep defending a young qb who was bad and use that it's his first season, as the logic but not offer that to the coaches. He was bad. He was ranked 32nd. Yep, so was the D. They were all bad. But they didn't quit. They played hard. So did Zac.
    I notice you don't seem to be defending Mims and using him as the poster boy for bad coaching anymore.

    I don't think this staff cared where they ranked in anything. I think they cared about development. Until the OL got hammered with injuries, they were improving. The offense was getting better. They were arguably better in ZW's absence. But Zac did improve. That's a good thing
    The defense had, 1 starting LB, 1 starting CB and no starting safeties. It isn't shocking they were bad.
    Hall got better, Echols got better, Carter Jr 2 got better. Q Williams got better.

    That's the thing about development and rebuilds, the focus and goal is different.

    They need to do better but like Zac, it was their first year at their jobs



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  5. #1850
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    Apples and Oranges

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinkotheclown View Post
    A pass? Like give Zac? It's fairly hypocritical to keep defending a young qb who was bad and use that it's his first season, as the logic but not offer that to the coaches. He was bad. He was ranked 32nd. Yep, so was the D. They were all bad. But they didn't quit. They played hard. So did Zac.
    I notice you don't seem to be defending Mims and using him as the poster boy for bad coaching anymore.

    I don't think this staff cared where they ranked in anything. I think they cared about development. Until the OL got hammered with injuries, they were improving. The offense was getting better. They were arguably better in ZW's absence. But Zac did improve. That's a good thing
    The defense had, 1 starting LB, 1 starting CB and no starting safeties. It isn't shocking they were bad.
    Hall got better, Echols got better, Carter Jr 2 got better. Q Williams got better.

    That's the thing about development and rebuilds, the focus and goal is different.

    They need to do better but like Zac, it was their first year at their jobs
    I hope you're kidding

    You are comparing a twenty one year old trying to learn his craft with forty somethings who should already be there when taking on the responsibility of running a team.

    An NFL coach shouldn't have the excuse of "he's still got the training wheels on.
    In your forties, you may not have prior experience of NFL head coaching, but you should be a finished product as far as management skills and being a leader of men. And frankly, Jets upper management would be laughed out of the business if they tried using the excuses that you're trying to run by us.

    And you can't use the excuse that they didn't have talent while they're in the process of tossing their best talent aside at an alarming rate - which is, by far, the biggest complaint I have with this bunch and which, Douglas, if he wants to keep his job, has got to get on top of with these neophytes.

  6. #1851
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    Quote Originally Posted by ortforshort View Post
    I hope you're kidding

    You are comparing a twenty one year old trying to learn his craft with forty somethings who should already be there when taking on the responsibility of running a team.

    An NFL coach shouldn't have the excuse of "he's still got the training wheels on.
    In your forties, you may not have prior experience of NFL head coaching, but you should be a finished product as far as management skills and being a leader of men. And frankly, Jets upper management would be laughed out of the business if they tried using the excuses that you're trying to run by us.

    And you can't use the excuse that they didn't have talent while they're in the process of tossing their best talent aside at an alarming rate - which is, by far, the biggest complaint I have with this bunch and which, Douglas, if he wants to keep his job, has got to get on top of with these neophytes.
    So, if an oversight position (in whatever field or career that a person has worked ) at a competing organization opens up and a person with 20 years experience at lower levels in other organizations is hired by that organization, should there be no learning curve for that newly hired person to 1) become proficient at his/her new position, developing new skills and strategies along the way, 2) understand the management structure and culture of the new organization, which might differ from his/her previous experience, 2) evaluate and develop the skills of the people reporting to him/her, including both supervisors and workers and 4) learn from his/her successes and failures?

    Yes, there are transferable or developing skills, which will help with the transition, and you might have high expectations, but it is improbable that the individual won't struggle at all before becoming a polished product.

  7. #1852
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    I think the biggest problem is how ownership doesn't demand more. I just feel like when I watch the NY Jets as a whole, both on the field and off the field, I am watching a team that is playing an entirely different game of football.

    Let's be realistic, if the Jets ever want to win the division 11 or 12 wins is a MUST. Buffalo had a down year and still went 11-6. If you look at every division in the NFL, the lowest division winner was Cincinnati at 10-7. In 2020, outside of the abyss known as the NFC East every division winner won at least 11 games. And outside of Philadelphia and Pittsburgh this year (who both had 9 wins), every wild card team at least won 10 games. If you want in the playoffs from this point forward with a 17 game schedule, you are going to need AT LEAST 10 wins.

    How long do Joe Douglas and Robert Saleh get in order to make this a reality and start making the Jets an attractive destination for free agents and not a laughing stock?

    How much longer are the owners going to sit back and say, "there is no playoff mandate" this year? Cincinnati went 4-11-1 in 2020 and are in the AFC Championship game in their 2nd year under Zac Taylor; Philadelphia went 4-11-1 in 2020, fired Doug Pederson, and went to the playoffs in their first year with a new coach.

    I think it's time for ownership and fans to demand a little more out of the coaching and front office. Joe Douglas as a full time GM of the NY Jets is 6-27. Why is this acceptable? Those are numbers that would get GM's fired in a lot of places.
    Eichel Tower

  8. #1853
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    The only problem with your logic is the fact that the Jets gave Joe Douglas a 7 year contract, because they knew that things were so screwed up that it would take several years to effect a major change in the organization. They knew that there was no quick fix. Yes, we had 2 bad years record wise, but we have changed the culture and must progress from here.

  9. #1854
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    Quote Originally Posted by ortforshort View Post
    I guess by that you're saying that the Jets had a good defense last year.
    Did you watch the games? All the way thru? After one debacle after another? The Jets weren't worth CNN's or TMZ's time, by the way. Still aren't.

    Are you denying that it was a historically bad defense?
    Everyone posting here seems to want to give this coaching staff a pass and try to deny how bad things really were as a result.
    There have been zillions of first year coaching staffs in the past and none of them have been as bad as this. So let's not try to use the "it was only their first year" to mollify how bad it really was.

    Also, is that what the Jets have degenerated into? A training ground for first year coaches to see if they can develop any real coaching skills? Imagine if these guys came in to one of the better organizations. They would have been run out of town. Here, after Gaze, I guess anyone who can put two sentences together at a press conference looks like Vince Lombardi
    I should have been more clear, unlike a CNN or TMZ headline or story
    But where are you seeing the staff and GM kicking QW and Foli to the curb?

  10. #1855
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    Quote Originally Posted by CNNforshort View Post
    I hope you're kidding

    You are comparing a twenty one year old trying to learn his craft with forty somethings who should already be there when taking on the responsibility of running a team.

    An NFL coach shouldn't have the excuse of "he's still got the training wheels on.
    In your forties, you may not have prior experience of NFL head coaching, but you should be a finished product as far as management skills and being a leader of men. And frankly, Jets upper management would be laughed out of the business if they tried using the excuses that you're trying to run by us.

    And you can't use the excuse that they didn't have talent while they're in the process of tossing their best talent aside at an alarming rate - which is, by far, the biggest complaint I have with this bunch and which, Douglas, if he wants to keep his job, has got to get on top of with these neophytes.
    Wheres all this talent theyíre kicking to the curb? Excluding Mims
    QW, Foli, and Mekhi have all been headline grabbing nonsense with rumors/grumblings/writer opinions

  11. #1856
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyi View Post
    So, if an oversight position (in whatever field or career that a person has worked ) at a competing organization opens up and a person with 20 years experience at lower levels in other organizations is hired by that organization, should there be no learning curve for that newly hired person to 1) become proficient at his/her new position, developing new skills and strategies along the way, 2) understand the management structure and culture of the new organization, which might differ from his/her previous experience, 2) evaluate and develop the skills of the people reporting to him/her, including both supervisors and workers and 4) learn from his/her successes and failures?

    Yes, there are transferable or developing skills, which will help with the transition, and you might have high expectations, but it is improbable that the individual won't struggle at all before becoming a polished product.
    Good response to a silly question

  12. #1857
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyi View Post
    The only problem with your logic is the fact that the Jets gave Joe Douglas a 7 year contract, because they knew that things were so screwed up that it would take several years to effect a major change in the organization. They knew that there was no quick fix. Yes, we had 2 bad years record wise, but we have changed the culture and must progress from here.
    This

    And to the original question: yes itís super frustrating being at the bottom for so long. I think JDs approach while painfully slow is the right approach. It remains to be determined if itís executed correctly or not

  13. #1858
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry M View Post
    Good response to a silly question
    Not saying that - of course there's a learning curve for that position.

    What I am saying is that they lack the requirements to get to that position in the first place.

    If you are a new manager in an an organization and the first thing you do is start purging the best talent left over to you from the previous regime because you are unable to adapt even an inch, then you should never have been hired. You're a failure. And unfortunately for the Jets that appears to be where we are. Williams, Fatukasi, Mims and Becton are being kicked to the curb because of this new coaching staff's inability to adjust. That's bad. Particularly for an organization bereft in talent to start unloading top talent immediately is a huge red flag.

    Sorry, but adaptability to circumstances isn't a skill that's going to be learned and these guys don't have it.

    I'm sorry that you all don't understand, but you don't. So be it.

  14. #1859
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    Quote Originally Posted by ortforshort View Post
    Not saying that - of course there's a learning curve for that position.

    What I am saying is that they lack the requirements to get to that position in the first place.

    If you are a new manager in an an organization and the first thing you do is start purging the best talent left over to you from the previous regime because you are unable to adapt even an inch, then you should never have been hired. You're a failure. And unfortunately for the Jets that appears to be where we are. Williams, Fatukasi, Mims and Becton are being kicked to the curb because of this new coaching staff's inability to adjust. That's bad. Particularly for an organization bereft in talent to start unloading top talent immediately is a huge red flag.

    Sorry, but adaptability to circumstances isn't a skill that's going to be learned and these guys don't have it.

    I'm sorry that you all don't understand, but you don't. So be it.
    So you should only hire a head coach, who was a head coach. Got it. How'd that work with Gase?
    If that's not what you mean, what are the requirements? Call me crazy but I thought being a very successful DC or OC was a great thing to have on your resume, especially when your bosses and players rave about you.
    What is the requirement for an OC or DC? I thought that being a very successful positions coach was a good start. Apparently there is another group of skills they need.


    Purging?

    What are your talking about? Who did they purge? Who is all this talent the new coaches have booted?

    Williams? Certainly not Quincy because he was a very good player for this team and the coaches, as bad as they are, managed to get the best out of him by putting him into a position to succeed. So I am guessing you mean they are booting Quinnen? Well Joe said this about a week ago

    Douglas told reporters. "Obviously, Quinnen is a valuable member of this team and a valuable member of this front and he does a lot of positive things and I believe he finished the season with [six] sacks and thereís a lot of things that he does to disrupt the game. He is a player that we all value and appreciate and want to keep here for a long time."

    That doesn't sound like anyone is kicking him to the curb. I highly doubt Saleh feels any differently than Douglas.

    Fatukasi is being kicked to the curb? I haven't seen the FO or coaches make negative comments about him and I would argue that he had a solid season.

    Becton. I agree that coaches should get the best out of him but there is only so much they can do. What if he's weak willed? What if he doesn't really care? What if he takes off plays? Personal responsibility and accountability are a factor.

    Mims. Are you really going to argue for a guy who continually looked unprepared and lost? Are you arguing for the ruining of a WR that the young QB clearly didn't trust. I fully believe that if Zac loved Mims, Mims would have been on the field. Mims was terrible.


    Why do you disregard completely, the players who improved?
    Why do you disregard completely, that this team played hard till the very end and no one quit?
    How can you say that Zac and a bunch of other players improved but the staff failed?


    The coaches lack adaptability? Holy crap that is a ludicrous comment. Seriously, think about it.
    They had the youngest team. They started the most rookies. They had the second most injuries to starters in the league.

    I wonder how those injuries to veteran players affect the rookies and second year guys? I'll bet the young players needed zero help in regards to keeping focused on playing the best game they can and not throwing in the towel. I'll bet they learned how to change what they were doing by themselves.

    You keep using scheme as their logic. That is inaccurate. It is abundantly clear that they want players who will do whatever they can to get and stay on the field. They want guys who fight for their job and are unconcerned with draft stock. What if you have a coaching staff that doesn't care who you are if you you aren't working top improve yourself? Why is that a bad thing?

    If Betcon is lazy and doesn't want to work. I don't want him. Do you?
    If Mims doesn't want to do the mental grind and prep to make himself fully prepared and reliable, I don't want him. Do you?
    Do you want guys who have talent but don't work to be the best they can or do you want guys who will fight tooth and nail to get onto the field.?
    Why is it bad to hold all players to the same standard, regardless of how high they were drafted?

    You may want to take a step back and reevaluate because you tell all of us, we are wrong and don't understand.
    Maybe you are the one who doesn't understand.



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  15. #1860
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    I also doubt Quinine or Fatukasi are going anywhere and Becton will be given a fresh start next year, though it might be at RT if we draft Neal. I'm a big Becton fan and I expect him to heal and thrive next year, but if we did move on from, what do you think we could get for him? What would the Bengals give up to have him protect Burrow?

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